Right for the Wrong Reasons? | Greg Lauer
In addition to his main focus on the Feast of Trumpets throughout the article Greg sprinkles in many other valuable insights for those of us watching this sign and eagerly waiting for the Lord's appearing. This is his last article before the sign appears he made sure it packs a punch. It is not a short article, but it is a must read.
Here is the link and some quotes.
http://www.alittlestrength.com/articles/2017/1708-wrong-reasons.htm
Quote 1: Greg makes the case in the article why he doesn't think the most common explanations given for the Rapture / Feast of Trumpets connection is correct. But to be clear, in no way is he 'debunking' this sign... in fact he gives other reasons why that connection is legitimate.
I also want to mention a few reasons why I don't have a problem with biblically based speculation concerning the fact that the Rapture actually could come on the Feast of Trumpets, since there are some biblical reasons why it makes sense. I just don't believe it can be proven from Scripture in the particular manner that so many seem to have latched on to, and so the idea remains in the realm of speculation.Quote 2: Greg is sharing what he believes needs to be shared, even if it may not be popular with much of his audience. I totally love and respect him for that.
In other words: People who think they have scriptural proof that the Rapture must happen on Rosh Hashanah might be right for the wrong reasons.
But I just can't sit and listen quietly anymore. I feel something needs to be said and this is my last chance to get it off my chest before The Big Event. What finally pushed me over the edge and got me to sit down and write this article (an article that part of me doesn't really want to write because I know it will put me at odds with some folks I love and respect) was something I stumbled across a few months ago. Was it the Holy Spirit who led me to it? Is what I came across in any way meaningful? That's not for me to say—I'm perfectly willing to just put this out there and humbly allow those who are spiritual to judge.Quote 3: Greg see's a possible connection to 1 Thes 4:16 KJV (descend with a shout) and The Day of Shouting (aka Feast of Trumpets).
As I said earlier, I have no problem whatsoever with the idea of the Rapture occurring on Rosh Hashanah—I'm just no longer willing to sit and listen quietly to people try and tell me that Paul's reference to the "last trump" makes it some kind of Bible lock. I believe it does no such thing.I could keep go on and on. Here is the bottom line. Greg carefully and thoughtfully gives us much information we all need to be aware of at this critical time. For me personally, each and every day from here on out is a 'High Watch Day'. I whole heartedly agree that the Feast of Trumpets makes a TON of sense, and really really really really hope the rapture is on or very near that soon coming appointed time. But on the other hand, I am also preparing myself for the possibility that it could be a period of time after that day. Greg wisely warns us that the debunkers will be viscous if we make it to the 24th. But please know that I will not be letting my guard down if it does not happen by then, and I will not let myself get discouraged.
On the other hand, there actually are reasons why a Rosh Hashanah Rapture would make decent biblical sense. After all, the Karaites and other groups of scriptural literalists insisted on calling it the Day of Shouting.
Why? Why should we remain encouraged no matter what happens this month?
In the words of Greg Lauer...
"God is telling us loud and clear that we're staring down the barrels of the Rapture."
Just thought I would bring this to your attention if you had not seen. A link from Stan Deyo's site. http://christinprophecyblog.org/2017/08/investigating-the-great-sign-of-revelation-12/
ReplyDeleteHis argument is that the sign depicts Christ, not the church. This is not correct. It has been clearly shown time and time again that Rev 12 is talking about the church:
Deletehttp://www.unsealed.org/2017/08/who-is-male-child-of-revelation-12.html
This is not a new idea, either. It is the position of numerous historical commentators:
http://www.unsealed.org/2017/08/conservative-scholars-agree-male-child.html
His argument is not convincing.
Nor do I believe all of this will somehow be "disproven" if the rapture hasn't happened by 9/24. When, exactly, is the sign of Rev 12 going to appear again? I think it is beyond debate that Rev 12:1-2 is happening exactly one time in human history, and that is on 9/23. Maybe the rapture will happen before then, or maybe on that date, or maybe after that date. There is no way to know - which is exactly the point being made by this article. We don't know enough about the "dragon" sign to be able to pinpoint a date.
The only way I can see this sign being "disproven" is if someone can find this sign appearing on a different date with a better fulfillment. But that has never happened. I think that is because it cannot be done.
Jonathan
Thanks Jonathan, well put.
DeleteI came across a site lately on you tube...believe it may have been 'return of the bride'.......and he pushed out the possible rapture watch date to 10/4 or 10/5 due to Sukkot (runs from 10/4 to 10/11/2017) and used the following verse for his rationale....'palms in their hands'
DeleteRevelation 7:9 ►
After this I beheld, and, see, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
The article is too long!
ReplyDeleteAlso, why does he and others skip Mark 13: 31 when talking about 13:32?
Rev. 12:4 one third of star cast down to earth can't be stars because that many stars would destroy the earth. I believe they are fallen angels.
I was thinking the same thing about Matthew 13:31! I literally want to shake people who do this (in a loving way lol) with this passage. Stop it. Read the whooooollllleeee thing before that sentence comes out of your mouth. I did that my mom the other lol. She is not a believer in the sign, and that was her answer starting that verse! I was like don't even finish it, open your bible and read what that verse is really referring to. She said oh, I always thought it was about Jesus return.
DeleteI am sorry, I like his articles a lot and will continue reading them. However the article lost a lot of its credibility right there. BECAUSE when that verse is used in that context, your are not reading your bible. Please please read what in both The books of Matthew and Mark are talking about before stating that verse as a sense of when the rapture or Jesus returns. That is not what it is referencing to at all.
Dear Cassie, please look then at Matthew 5:18 sermon on the Mount too... ;) any similarities?
DeleteI believe Matth24 does certainly deal with the rapture (see v.40-41 what else should that be?) such as the parallel chapter in Mark and Luke. What many read now here is a parenthesis IMO referring to the sermon on the Mount statement. Blessings!
OK, I must be dense, but how exactly does Mark 13:31 ("Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away") change anything I said about Mark 13:32? What am I missing?
DeleteHi Greg,
DeleteThere are people who believe so that it is the time when "heaven and earth will pass away" (and the Lord will make everything new), it is THAT time that "no one knows", only the Father in Heaven. AKA Jesus was referring to that, He wasn't talking about the Rapture or The Second Coming, He simply followed the topic of the previous verse (Mark 13:31) in Mark 13:32.
I asked the following question to the author:
ReplyDeleteQuestion:
"I'm wondering if God allowed the Karaite influence to fade over time (and Rabbanites to increase) in order for the hidden meaning of "the last trump" to become unsealed in the time of the end (ala Dan 12)? Said another way.... Could God have used the addition of the shofar blasts (or the increasing acceptance of the practice of them) over time to set us up in a way so that phrase (at the last trump) would reveal this knowledge of timing only at the time of the end, while not doing so back then?
Then perhaps the former Jews of Paul's day aren't falsely led to focus on this one day, while the Christians of today are led to this point now? Seems to me there is a chance God may have orchestrated this thing (using the rise of the Rabbanites to His advantage) leading up to this point...."
Greg's Response:
Hi Brad,
Believe it or not, that exact same thought occurred to me as well. I can't say it's impossible...and the Lord does work in mysterious ways and all that, but it still comes across as a wee bit of a stretch to me personally, although I have no argument with anyone who views it this way. Thanks for your response.
In Christ,
Greg
Thanks for posting this article - it was a real eye-opener! Made me rethink some things. I think he is right about the festival of "trumpets"; he makes a good case. It's curious to think that we might have been right all along, but for the wrong reasons.
ReplyDeleteI also appreciate how he brings the second sign - the sign of the dragon - back into view. I don't think the sign of the woman will be "disproven" on 9/24 if nothing happens. There is so much that we still don't know. I do think that the sign of the dragon - whatever it is -- will need to happen in relatively short order after the "birth", though. Jupiter is only going to be in position in Virgo for a short time after 9/23, and the sign of the woman isn't going to happen again. But we will see what happens. There are a lot of possibilities.
Jonathan
I have much of the articles about the Revelation 12 sign and watched the videos. I am wondering about two things: first, the other sign that appears, the red Dragon. How do you ex ppl gain that?
ReplyDeleteAlso, if the church has been raptured, how do you explain revelation 12:17 which speaks of "the rest of her offspring"?
The article linked in the post you commented on discussed the dragon. Extensively. With a picture. I'm guessing you didn't actually read it.
DeleteJonathan
The rest of her offspring from Rev 12:17 are most often interpreted as the Tribulation Saints, sometimes as the believing remnant of the Jews.
DeleteI agree with Brad. The "rest of her seed" cannot be the Church. See what I said in "The Sky Don't Lie."
Deletehttp://www.alittlestrength.com/articles/2017/1703-sky-dont-lie.htm
Scroll down to point no. 5.
I believe when you know the significance of God's feast days and their fulfillment of the first 4 feast days that have been filled in the exact order written in the bible, the next ones will also be fulfilled likewise. Now couple the Feast of Trumpets with a Jewish wedding it is pretty explanatory in and of itself, remember Yesuha turned water into wine as his first sign of who he is to the people. Everything points to Yeshua and his coming for his bride.
ReplyDeleteWill it be this year? A lot seems to point to it and it is very compelling with all the signs the past few years however if the rapture does not happen this year it will happen soon and I do believe it will be on a future Feast of Trumpets.
For decades a few days before the Feast of Trumpets, bibles with highlighted verses, a letter, books, tapes and added calendars from the past few years and more have been placed on the coffee table for those who are left behind if the rapture happens that year on the Feast of Trumpets.
So do not be discouraged if the rapture does not happen this year, it will happen in God's time. This gives real true meaning to immanence, telling us you have one more year to reach out to the lost until the Next Feast of Trumpets.
I must admit that I am really excited about the Feast of Trumpets this year more than any in the past.
Nana
Titus 2:13
RTHT: couldn't make it to the end, sorry Greg. We are both not from the Jewish people and if anyone would listen to Mark Biltz' explanation of the FoT being an annual "dress rehearsal" for the BIG event he/she might better understand what the Feasts are in fact. As well, I do not doubt a second that God is absolutely exact and accurate in timing. If the Passover lamb was slain at 3 p.m. then this was the exact time when Jesus she's His blood on the cross for us. The same will be on the FoT and the moment of change i.e. resurrection / rapture at the "last trump" 1 Corinthians 15:52.
ReplyDeleteI respectfully disagree on the following issues which are of main concern IMO:
# The Feasts of the LORD are Gods appointment with Israel. Not "Jewish Feasts". They are Gods appointment on HIS divine calendar FOR His elected nation on earth. If Paul clearly mentions the FoT to be the date of resurrection / rapture of the church (!) then I will firmly believe in his divinely inspired assertion. Furthermore, he confirms the exact times and seasons of the Feast days not to be some big deal for the Thessalonians because the knowledge was clearly provided (1 Thessalonians 5:1 = just the following verses in context to the rapture in 4:17). It only got lost during the continuous process of antisemitic influence of replacement theology in church in the following centuries. This was sth God never had intended (Romans 11). One of the main issues of the whole letter to the Roman church was in contrary to AVOID this schism between Christians out of the Jews and out of the Gentiles.
# The bible clearly indicates 1 single day for the FoT (Leviticus 23:24 / Numbers 29:1) no matter what Israel or men made of it (e.g. changing duration or mixing it with Rosh Hashanah which is not the same as FoT = 9/23 is Tishri 3rd but not 1st). Not less, not more. The indisputable word of God states Tishri 1 to be the day which marks 9/21 in 2017 on a western calendar.
# The doctrine of imminency is sth MEN have defined by majority vote at the Niagara Bible Conference of 1878 (article 3) for what 3 different statements were proposed: a) Christ may appear at any moment, but this will only be understood by the final generation of the church (A. J. Gordon), b) Christ could return within the lifetime of any individual generation of believers (Samuel H. Kellogg), c) "imminent" requires "the coming of Christ for his saints as possible any hour" (Arthur H. Pierson). Now guess what which definition of "imminence" was in the end predominantly voted for? And which kind of teaching entered the "traditional" doctrine especially in the endtimes, leaving believers puzzled and divided about this question until today. Now tell me, who is it who rejoices about division inside the church and is himself the master of confusion? ;)
These are my main objections against Gregs elaborate article, apart from the fact that whole Rev12 chapter describes a whole 7 years' period but the first verses 1-5 must occur very closely in timeframe whereas I personally believe Rev12-sign marking the year 2017 now and the date of resurrection being appointed by God Himself on the FoT day 9/21. The "male child" (church) is immediately being "harpazoed" (BEFORE the "woman" travails i.e. before the sign is fulfilled like in C-section) from the threatening "dragon" planetary system which in the meantime is indeed already being reported visibly (!) and documented not only on some Google skyview but by real skycam footage around the world e.g. on YouTube channel EXPITALY. Just check out for yourself! :) Blessings to you, YSIC
Oh, and btw Greg: you wrote that the early church obviously didn't observe the Feast days? Well, all I can find are verses like Romans 14:6 or Colossians 2:16 (now read what they all did there!) that express quite the CONTRARY but rather confirm the beginning of schism between the "Gentile" and "Jewish" Christians (today we would perhaps call them "messianic"). YSIC
Delete"Oh, and btw Greg: you wrote that the early church obviously didn't observe the Feast days?"
DeleteI didn't say that.
Nice to hear from you, Annabel. You didn't disappoint.
No offense Greg ;) Nice to hear from you too. At least you had no objections so far with what I wrote apart from a false quote... Stay blessed! YSIC
DeleteGreg, you're living in Thailand, right? I hope you're safe and dry though, I've seen some recent video footage on YouTube with severe flooding ("The two preachers"). Take care, Jesus may protect you and yours!
Delete"At least you had no objections so far with what I wrote apart from a false quote..."
DeleteI just don't feel like arguing, Annabel--the article took every ounce out of me. It's OK...I knew I was gonna get pistol-whipped for it before I even started writing.
You know, the thing is that I could give you a dandy argument for a Rosh Hashanah Rapture. But I could give you one just as convincing for a Pentecost Rapture, if not more so.
Unlike 99 percent of the folks out there reading websites like this and Unsealed, etc., I don't have a pet Rapture date I'm pushing. I am convinced we should be willing to watch and wait and see what the Father reveals to us--so I simply refuse to latch onto a certain date, no matter how many or how deep the connections. I think Jesus was clear: we will never know *by our own suppositions, opinions, or estimations.* It's up to the Father to reveal these things to us, and Gary made a good point: He may yet do just that.
Taiwan, not Thailand. And we could use some rain to give us a break from the heat! =:P
YBIC
Its a shame you couldn't read right through to the end, as it got better as it went through. My dad used to mention a preacher that spoke at Church many years ago. He would start the morning service off with a message that left the church folk totally and utterly convinced that his message was right. At the night service however, he brought an opposite perspective of the morning message, leaving everyone totally convinced (who had not turned up to the morning service) that he was correct in his biblical perspective (e.g., once saved always saved vs conditional security etc)
DeleteThe wonderful thing about these articles (and I would compare and contrast Brad Hurst and Greg L's ones as examples), is that they leave me totally amazed at the depths of the word of God, and utterly convinced we have to remain in humility on the word of God, knowing that 'we see in a mirror dimly', and that absolute knowledge of the word of God, will only come about when we are standing face to face with THE Word of God! Well done Greg for stretching my spirit that little bit moorland giving me more insight into the word of God (and I would encourage you to read Brad H's paper).
Finally - May we continue to be stretched as we await our pre-wrath rapture. HAHAHAHA sorry couldn't help myself by throwing that in...I am glad you pre-trib folk are the forgiving humorous type around here:)
Through & Through dear brother I have in fact READ Brad Hursts paper and especially when it comes to the prophetic description of FoT! We might agree to disagree about a certain year for rapture but if 4 of the the 7 Feasts of the LORD have been exactly fulfilled in the past then rapture / resurrection MUST be fulfilled on a FoT day exact in future. I'm not ashamed not to read parts of an article when it comes to some historic Rabbinic twisting of scripture but yes I skipped that part. It is not relevant to having scripture exactly fulfilled according to Gods calendar no matter what men made out of it. Much love to all of you, MARANATHA!
DeleteAnnabel you had me up until you said the "'dragon' planetary system," as if anyone knows for sure what that is. I hope you don't trust NASA for information describing 'celestial bodies.' We've yet to see what the dragon of verse 4 really is, it's fun to speculate, but is fruitless and can be harmful.
DeleteI'll just say this. The word used in Leviticus 23:24 uses the word "zikkaron" for remembrance.
ReplyDeleteThe root is "zakar".
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/2146.htm
Day of Teruah (translated as Trumpets/shouting/alarm/blasting). Fine, I can agree on this point.
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/8643.htm
... a day of remembrance = "zikkaron"
This same root is used in Isaiah 66:7 as the very name of the "man child" = "zakar"
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/2145.htm
Coincidence is not a kosher word!
Such as the "book of remembrance" in Malachi 3:16 - general key words in scriptures with a rapture topic (besides the wedding and the birth imagery) are "shout/ing", "gather/ing", "hide/hidden" and "remember/remembrance". TY James! :)
DeletePsalm 86:
Delete18 Oh, turn to me, and have mercy on me!
Give Your strength to Your servant,
And save the son of Your maidservant.
17 Show me a sign for good,
That those who hate me may see it and be ashamed,
Because You, Lord, have helped me and comforted me.
Thank you both for you insight.
DeleteBeyond any purely scriptural response to this man's skepticism, what then to make of the seeming confirmation given by the Great Pyramid of Giza?:
ReplyDeletehttps://watchfortheday.org/signsoftheend/giza2024.html
It's a little technical, but if you put on your thinking cap and try to really understand it, it is definitely worth your time, and can edify your faith in these confusing times.
Thanks David! What is interesting is by the time I hit the Revelation 12 Sign (understanding it) I had already concluded 2017. So it was icing on the cake!
DeleteI will admit here that I only read the beginning and end of this article as I couldn't take its underhandedness with the facts.
I read the whole thing and to be honest with you it was like watching a magician. You had to watch very closely to catch his slight of hand. I think this was a very well crafted article that is designed to prey upon the ignorant and to shake our confidence. My book was written as a prebutal to such arguments. He has several flaws. #1 Daniel 2 speaks very loudly against the accepted norm of imminence. Even if one accepts the normal application of Rome being the two legs, Rome was not divided in Paul's day. That did not occur until around 250 A.D. When the western portion of the empire fell in 476 A.D. It fell into an array of city and vassal states and the modern states as we know them did not even start to form until around 13 A.D. That is if you accept the modern Europe fits the paradigm. Daniel 2 says it is not until the iron legs divide into 10 kingdoms that the Lord could return. After the west fell the eastern empire continued as a continuation of Greece under the Byzantium empire. It fell in 1454 with the fall of Constantinople to the ottomans who nearly conquered all of the roman territories and then some. There was no way the rapture could occur while the areas in question were under a unified empire whether it be Roman, Byzantium, Abbasid ( Persia to France ) or Ottoman Babylon to Germany. # 2 did peter believe in imminence and was it possible as long as he was alive ? #3 did Paul believe it when he said that it been revealed to him that he was to be poured out as a drink offering. He does not mind linking our thinking to Babylonian Jews and the corruptions of the rabbis in that area. But he totally ignores the Ashkenazi Jews of northern Europe who had fled the roman empire in 135 A.D. taking many of their documents with them. he beats us up with the Babylonian Jews and then goes to them to comfort us at the end.
ReplyDeleteHere is free online version of my book that was set up to counter such arguments.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/k4h2c5qvm558d1j/Sytematic+Escatology.++edited+-Autosaved-.pdf
for those who haven't read Brads pdf, it is brilliant! You don't even need a coffee to keep awake, however it may not help your marriage if you are showing more excitement about all the wonderful truths/revelations coming from the pdf than preparing for the next date night...
DeleteI not only read your book, Brad, I printed it out and insisted all the adults in my family read it as well. Of course they are all following the revelation 12 sign, and were easily persuaded. So much good information for only 114 pages. Thank you brother.
DeleteDownloaded, I will read it as it seems intriguing. The article was intriguing as well. Thank you for taking the time to write your book.
DeleteSo, I guess when Paul admonished the Church to be watchful, he meant "Be watchful once the middle of the 15th Century arrives. In other words, folks; ya gots plenty of time."
DeleteHorrible article. I won't go into all the errors and this man went into but I will focus on one.
ReplyDeleteHe attempts to argue there is no biblical foundation that the shofar should be blown on the feast of trumpets, and that it is based on tradition alone. And that it was a tradition started by the Pharisees.
Well guess what. Paul was a Pharisee, and God decided to use a Pharisee for a reason.
Today in Israel the feast of trumpets is celebrated by the blowing of the shofar. The fact this this happens today will be a literal fulfilled of Paul's writings if the rapture were to occur when the last trump is blown on the feast of trumpets.
also the spirit that the article was written in doesn't sit well with me.
Sorry you feel that way, Peter.
DeletePeter - today in Israel, they also celebrate 'pride week', and the Sanhedrin celebrating FoT by the blowing of the shofar are also prohibiting Messianic Jews from getting married in Israel (unless they renounce Christ). As hard as it is to say this, modern day Israel should be the last place we look to for interpreting biblical truths. Use the bible to interpret biblical events.
DeleteGreat article....and his comments about being a cubs fan had me rolling. "Maybe next year"...
ReplyDelete(I could not figure out how to reply to the article and it looks like I"m replying to Acommonsoul). The author makes an important error in determining FOT and let me tell you why it makes a difference. The rabbinical day of observation is in err and it is not until the following evening that the first crescent of the new moon will be visible in Jerusalem - use renewedmoon dot com to see this. Also using Stellarium you can see that there simply won't be enough of a visible crescent to declare the new month on this rabbinically calculated day. This then puts the end of the two-day feast on Sept. 23 (Tishri 2). The 100th shofar blast is blasted at sunset of Tishri 2, and like I said, this will be Sept. 23. If you look at Stellarium, it is at the EXACT time, I mean down to a few minutes one way or the other, that the moon is DIRECTLY and PERFECTLY at the feet of Virgo! You can take a straightedge to your monitor and see that just as the last trump of Yom Teruah is sounded, the Rev. 12:1-2 sign is PERFECTLY represented. 6000 years in the making and it shows up with this precision! It's amazing!
DeleteCan someone confirm when the "last trump" (100th shofar blast) is blown? Is it at sunset on the initial sighting of the new moon or at the conclusion of the 2-day festival? Thanks -Jon
DeleteGood question 'unknown'. I was trying to figure this out myself, as it seemed to be the second day that Rosh H finishes (Friday 22 Sept...twilight is meant to be 730pm), however couldn't confirm this.
Delete@JohnC please then explain how Tishri 2 can fit with the scriptural given date for FoT of 1st day of the month in Leviticus 23:24? At the 2nd day year 5778 already has begin too and Jubilee ended 1 day late. Just trying to put the pieces together in order... Thanks! :) YSIC
Delete@Annabel: I'm just saying that there is a difference between the rabbinical (calculated) calendar and the actual sighted calendar of actually spotting the new moon. Two sources state that the new month begins the day after the rabbinical date. It is a bit of a stretch to make Yom Teruah two days long but apparently that is how it is now celebrated. I believe this point was touched on above, that even though it's not scriptural, per se, it has become the norm. Other than that, I simply don't know the rest. I guess to me the major point is that on Tishri 2 at sunset the Rev 12:1 sign is perfectly replicated and this is the celebrated time of blowing the 100th shofar. I'm not dogmatic about it at all. (that is if the new moon crescent is spotted on the 21st.
DeleteBrad, thank you for posting this article. The deeper one digs for holes, the clearer it is to see,... that our redemption draws near. ENCOURAGE on another as we SEE the day approaching. Shalom, Dan
ReplyDeleteI really do believe that we can know the day and hour of the rapture as the day is approaching. Did not Elijah know up to the hour when he will be taken away? And the demons know their appointed time when they would be sent to Hell. If such an important event of the bridegroom coming for His bride, surely the Father would tell beforehand to His servants the day and hour of His coming, it is common sense right? How do the bride get ready without information of His coming? Some preachers preached that no man knows the day or the hour, so you can keep watching, and this will guard your Christian behavior till the day He comes for you. Nothing can be further from the truth, if you do not know the day of His coming, you will never watch.. But if you know the day and hour of HIs coming, you will put down whatever things you are pursuing, put down your worries and depression, lay aside your sickness, and start watching as the day approach.
ReplyDeleteI can only speak for myself. What you say is true for me. I watch a lot closer after learning about the Rev 12 sign. Before that, it was " assume not in my life time live life normally " ('normal' being as if I will live until old age then pass on like most people). I find the concept of Imminence really onerous. You can't live like waiting for the other shoe to drop all the time without any inkling of when it is going to drop. Somewhere down the road, you get really get fatigued with it and stop watching. At some point one has to make some assumption in order to have some stability in life. It is like waiting for a friend who says he is coming but never does and you have no idea when. At some point, you can't put your life on hold and have to conclude or assume he is not coming and move on. The other side of the imminence concept is actually disappointment. This is probably why you end up with scoffers. I am not saying this is right but this is human nature, isn't it? To be honest, if nothing happens by the end of the year, and nothing significant arise on the horizon, I probably will go back to assuming "not in my life time, moving on".
DeletePRAISE BE TO CHRIST JESUS, KING OF KINGS.. LORD OF LORDS. WHETHER OR NOT THE REVELATION 12 SIGN IS THE DATE OF THE RAPTURE...WHETHER OR NOT THIS IS THE SIGN... ASK YOURSELF.
DeleteDID GOD NOT CREATE THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH FOR SIGNS AND SEASONS? DID JESUS NOT TELL HIS DISCIPLES TO LOOK FOR CERTAIN THINGS AS A SIGNAL TO HIS RETURN...THESE THINGS WILL BE LIKE BIRTH PAINS BUT DO NOT WORRY..BUT LOOK UP FOR YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWS NEAR.
ONCE THE BIRTH PAINS START... THE BIRTH OF THE CHILD IS IMMINENT. GOD IS SOVEREIGN...PUT YOUR FAITH IN HIM ALWAYS. HE MADE A CONVENANT THAT HE WOULD RETURN AND GAVE US SIGNS TO SIGNAL HIS RETURN... GOD KEEPS HIS PROMISES AND WE MUST KEEP OUR FAITH.
I strongly believe through God's personal words to me over many yrs of hardship that we are going HOME at literally any moment now. The Signs are magnified stronger than ever screaming to us Prepare your hearts now! Expect me Welcome me. Praise God Almight Alpha and Omega
DeleteEveryone...YHWH is in control...It is by HIS command when we go home and when Christ returns. We all agree on that....We must look up yes...and look for Jesus...All through Revelation Jesus commands us to watch for he will come at an hour we do not expect. He also warns us to watch so we are not caught off guard or as a thief. I am so thank full for Rev 12 sign, Unsealed, Scott Clark, and so many others that have helped us open our eyes. YHWH is mercifull in that respect., but when we go home is not important. It is that we do go home and the condition of our hearts and the relationship we have with YHWH. I really don't think I will say anything standing before HIM . All I feel at the thought of being before HIM is tears and a sense of humility and thankfulness. I am using this time to tell anyone who will listen , though they are few. I am also thanking YHWH for the time I have left to repent. and to pray for others.
ReplyDeleteTO those who scoff and even if the Lord tarries and we are still here. I have only this....I will look for HIM even more , LOVE HIM even more, Serve HIM even more, pray harder, and like the wise virgins keep my lamp filled with oil.
Hi Greg
ReplyDeleteThanks for your article. I always look forward to reading them. A question I have is (for yourself particularly and anyone commenting on this site) "If this GREAT SIGN does nothing but show up for the portion of one day and then disappear what is the point"? What does one tell a non believer to look for? It makes absolutely no sense to mention this to anyone if it has no impact, especially on the physical plane. On the other hand no matter whether one tells a non-believer that the rapture MAY happen on the 23rd or it may not; If nothing does occur then their reasons not to believe are strengthened. If we say it heralds the day of the end of the age its really rather meaningless to a nonbeliever is it not?
Can a person really think that the Lord is using this sign to bring about a more fuller fulfillment of 2 Peter 3:4? Is it not rather counter productive to be given this sign and then NOTHING?
Dear Wayne, if there is already discussion around Rev12-sign so much time beforehand it doesn't really matter if it shows up only 1 day in real time. We could examine it on Stellarium long time before. God works along our knowledge and technology today and has planned all this perfectly in foreseeing all things from eternity. I don't think Rev12-sign is for non-believers anyway. Those are not even looking for endtimes signs on earth neither do they understand the heavenlies John 3:12. Further more, it is written that people just eat and drink like in Noahs time "not knowing (at all!)" what is happening UNTIL judgement is at hand Matthew 24:39. I do not expect them to wake up before we're gone (verse 40-41) and disaster comes. I do agree with you that it just cannot be this sign not to mean anything and that it just might come and go without any further heavenly action at all around that date 9/23. This is not how God works. The Magi got (according to their ability and technology available) a star or conjunction to observe long time beforehand but then - as a consequence (!) of their act of faith in taking the journey to Israel - they even got another moving light source to follow that even led them at the door to that exact building Jesus was living in! I think this couldn't be just some constellation in sky but some supernatural
Deletelight from God, some message they could understand and follow those days. Likewise, every believer acting in FAITH (!!) today towards Rev12-sign will receive the same kind of 'supernatural affirmation' that it is in fact the real deal whereas others (the mockers and sceptics) will not James 1:7-8.
"What does one tell a non believer to look for?"
DeleteTell an unbeliever he needs forgiveness of sin, not signs in the heavens. Point him to the cross, not the cosmos. This sign is for believers--unbelievers think we're nuts anyway. This isn't a parlor trick meant to wow unbelievers--it's a sign to the body of Christ that our redemption is around the corner. There is no need for the words "September 23" to come out of anyone's mouth in witnessing to anyone.
"Can a person really think that the Lord is using this sign to bring about a more fuller fulfillment of 2 Peter 3:4?"
Shame on you for even suggesting that I said or meant that. It is the hype and hoopla created by legions of marginally informed believers that will bring about a new round of fulfillment of 2 Peter 3:3-4...not the LORD.
"Is it not rather counter productive to be given this sign and then NOTHING?"
It depends on how you interpret the sign(s). If you jump on the Raptashanah bandwagon and assume the Rapture will happen between September 20-23, then yeah, it *would* be rather counter-productive.
If you interpret the sign for exactly what it is and nothing more, then not so much.
I may as well come out and say it: I do not look for a Rosh Hashanah Rapture. I said in my article that yes, there ARE some striking parallels between Jewish beliefs about Rosh Hashanah and the Rapture. This is true. In the process, however, I fear I may have inadvertently given the impression that I actively look for the Rapture on Rosh Hashanah. This is not true. I do not subscribe to a Rosh Hashanah Rapture. I could give you a pretty compelling argument for a Rapture on Pentecost, too.
And I just may do so in my next article if I stay in the same mood I'm in now.
"Oh, so you subscribe to a Pentecost Rapture, do you?"
No. I subscribe to a Watch and Wait Rapture. That's the entire point.
Greg L.,
DeleteThanks for sharing with us your thoughts, I’m sorry that -often heated- arguments abound these days. Adding my 2 cents, for long I was on the opinion that in case (and ONLY in case) the Lord chooses a Jewish feast day for the rapture, the 2 most possible candidates are Pentecost and the Feast of Trumpets. However, I changed my opinion about Pentecost. The studies I read and heard about how the Lord Jesus fulfilled all the Spring Feasts of Israel with absolute precision, gave me the notion that the spring feasts are all fulfilled by the Lord and the fall feast are next on God’s prophetic calendar, waiting to be fulfilled. I think that it’s okay to reason that since Jesus Christ fulfilled all the spring feasts in His First Coming, He will also fulfill all the fall feast in His Second Coming. And here’s the place I should pause a bit and add that in my opinion there’s a significant chance that all the fall feasts including FoT will be fulfilled by His Second Coming! But…, I also see a good chance that IF He chooses so, the rapture could happen on a FoT, even on this coming one. In the end we could only wait and see how things will turn out, “watching and waiting” as you said.
"The studies I read and heard about how the Lord Jesus fulfilled all the Spring Feasts of Israel with absolute precision, gave me the notion that the spring feasts are all fulfilled by the Lord and the fall feast are next on God's prophetic calendar, waiting to be fulfilled."
DeleteI wrote about this about two years ago, but I may hit it again because few people have read anything on my site older than six months. Everybody (all the Raptashanah folks, at least) assume that Pentecost is completely fulfilled, so they check it off the list and move right on to Trumpets.
They all casually assume Jesus completely fulfilled Pentecost, just like He fulfilled the first three feasts. And what did Jesus do on the day of Pentecost two thousand years ago? Well, He sent the Holy Spirit, that's what He did. Done! On to Trumpets!
I will leave you with two verses of Scripture to chew on for awhile:
28When the Counselor has come, whom I WILL SEND to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will testify about me. (John 15:28 / emphasis added)
Yep, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit and fulfilled Pentecost. Cha-ching. On to Trumpets!
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom THE FATHER WILL SEND in my name, he will teach you all things, and will remind you of all that I said to you. (John 14:26 / emphasis added)
Oops.
If you're at all curious:
http://www.alittlestrength.com/articles/2015/1508-remember.htm#raptecost
Hey Wayne, I agree with everything you wrote, especially the part about looking forward to Greg's articles. I always feel like I learn something new, not just a rehashing of older opinions. The frenzy of the Blood Moons from a couple years ago comes to mind when reading your message. I honestly didn't expect the Rapture then because it didn't seem like all the pieces were in place. But now, with so many converging facets...I'll be puzzled if the Rev12 sign occurs...and life just moves on. Greg brings up a very good point about the dragon. I wish there was a consensus as to what the dragon is. It's all over the ballpark. Is it okay to admit frustration? CD
ReplyDeleteMy understanding of is that the sign of the woman in Rev 12:1-2 appears September 21-23, 2017 to declare the rapture of the man-child, the Church Rev 12:5 . The Dragon sign from Rev 12:3-4 appears 3 1/2 years later in heavens when Satan and the fallen Angels are cast out of Heaven, and the child Satan is trying to devour at that time is the "Spiritual birth of Israel". Yet, Israel is miraculously protected in the wilderness by God in Rev 12:6. So you see it is a tapestry of prophecy that is weaved together giving a "resurrected birth" to the Church and a "Spiritual birth" to Israel. My analogy is that the woman has twins.
ReplyDeleteIntriguing article, despite everything it 'coincidentally' lines up and works despite what we thought or have been told or have believed. Very intriguing. I'm glad people are taking their time to attack this and bring up flaws and issues. This has been very informative and has furthered my understanding.
ReplyDeleteI just want to say thank you to the author for his hard work and I think he's a really good writer! Having said that, I didn't find his arguments to be very strong. I respect his views, and it's not like they're too out there, but I found his reasoning as unconvincing as he seems to find tying in the "no man knows the hour" and "last trumpet" verse with Yom Teruha.
ReplyDeleteI used to be a post-trib/pre God wrath rapture believer, until I learned of how Biblically sound it was to view the man child as the Church. Before this I thought the last trumpet verse referred to the last trumpet from the book of revelations. If we believe in a pre-trib rapture, what could possibly the reference to a last trumpet? Why even give the order of the trumpet sound if it's not relevant? Why didn't it just say a trumpet blast like it does with the shout?
*Sigh*... I'm beginning to miss the good old days (before six months ago), when I lived in sweet, blissful obscurity with *nobody* reading my articles. Oh well, judging from some people's reactions to this last one, it looks like I'm heading back in that direction. No complaints here.
DeleteIf we all had the same opinion and saw things exactly the same, we'd be in big trouble, IMO. I really enjoy Greg's articles as well, and he brought new info to light that can be further studied. The bottom line in my book is that....we are here. It is the time...I don't know if the rapture is going to happen during 9/20-9/23, but I doubt any of us reading this think it's years out. I'm leaning heavily to FoT (not saying this one) because God is ordered. If he fulfilled the first 4, then I believe he will use the last 3...doesn't mean I'm right. Some say the feast are Jewish festivals. They are, first and foremost, God's festivals (appointed times). Regardless, there is a sign described in Revelation, and it is occurring in 16 days or so....we're here. Thanks Greg for your articles, and I doubt you will ever return to the point of few people reading your articles...sorry!
ReplyDelete"Thanks Greg for your articles, and I doubt you will ever return to the point of few people reading your articles...sorry!"
DeleteThanks. I needed that. =:)
I knew before I started writing it I was gonna get kicked in the teeth for it, but I had to do it. And that's hard. But I got some reactions that were surprisingly unkind (I don't mean Sam above), and it hurts because I pour my heart and soul into every article I write. I'm genetically incapable of doing it any other way.
But some people were downright nasty simply because they disagreed with some of what I said, and it was uncalled for in my humble opinion. That's how some people react when you nudge them out of their comfort zone and rock their little boat. Oh well, I guess it's like they say...put on your big boy pants and press on.
Greg... I personally got a lot out of the article and find great value in different view points. If the rapture doesn't happen on that exact weekend in September your article will be a great comfort and resource to many. If it does, many of the points you laid out are extremely helpful as well. For me, I feel like we are a bit like the Israelites 3 days after leaving Egypt. We are looking for our escape, hopeful for our escape... but we have a very ravenous army behind us (scoffers and unbelievers) looking to tear us apart if the sign doesn't fulfill every one of their most wildest expectations. On the other hand, there are some in our group on the journey with us but looking at the Red Sea on one side and the surrounding Rock walls on the other wondering if we just trapped ourselves... But just like back then, I truly believe God led us to this moment and he will not let us be destroyed, and He will lead us through in a way that gives HIM all the glory. Perhaps this time instead of the sea parting to allow the escape it will be THE CLOUDS.
DeleteGreg/Brad
DeleteWhen I read the article, my first thought was "dang...how much work went into this?". It was in depth, so I knew it wasn't just theory from Greg. If you've read Greg's articles, you know they're methodical and ordered, so I knew it wasn't something to immediately dismiss if it didn't fit into my idea of the subject matter. He was merely bringing to light history that may not have been known. Anyway, I boiled all that down into this...
God has communicated with us in various ways on this Earth, and we can manipulate that communication (intentionally & unintentionally). Am I saying that God can't communicate His message clearly? Absolutely not, but it can be used to divide. How many different versions of the Bible are there? Take 2 Thess 2:3 and the use of apostasy....that one verse is enough to divide the church in two. Once saved always saved, etc, etc, etc...
We can be divided over scripture interpretation, and Greg's article shows we can be divided over history....basically anything on Earth can be manipulated.
......but the stars. In all of our power (or lack of it), no one can change the stars or make them go away. The only thing that can be done is marginalization (which has been in process for a long time). I think that's why God used them because we can't change their message.
I love Brad's "Red Sea" analogy, because I do feel the masses on our heals. Their bows are drawn, their spears are raised, and I think there are some just waiting for 12:01am on 9/24 to fire away. I wouldn't be surprised if we have a flood of articles that day if we're still here. Good times.
Hi Greg and Annabel
DeleteThank you both for your comments. Greg - Please accept my apologizes for suggesting the 2 Peter 3:4 motive. It was not meant to be understood as strong as you took it but it was not right and if I could rescind the comment I would. You do a marvelous job with your deep insights for all of us and I am sure you are appreciated more than you think even with articles like this one. Peace to You Wayne
You have nothing to apologize for, my friend. I shouldn't have taken it in that spirit. It's just that I've been in a dour mood ever since I posted that article and started getting so much flak for what I though were reasonable arguments. Arguments I haven't heard any *actual refutation* for, by the way. Just flak because they rock the Raptashanah boat...a boat I sincerely believe is going to sink to the bottom of the deep, blue sea on September 24.
DeleteI mean, am I the only person in the entire body of Christ today who thinks it's odd that the first-century Church apparently didn't interpret Paul's mention of the "last trump" as a clear, direct link of the Rapture to Rosh Hashanah?
Well, I *do* think that's odd.
Am I the only one who is troubled by the fact that the blowing of shofars on Rosh Hashanah that everyone points to in order to use Paul's words to pin the Rapture to the Feast of Trumpets is based on the traditions of men and not on the Word of God?
Well, that *does* trouble me.
Then again, maybe it *is* just me.
Greg L.,
DeleteThe "last trumpet" isn't the only connection people -who consider the FoT as a possible date for the rapture- made. Allegedly, the "twinkling of an eye" is also a Jewish idiom which was used not (only) for the length of time but for a certain part of the day, namely twilight (when the new moon is sighted for the first time). If, what I've read about this alleged meaning of that Jewish idiom is true, this is also a possible connection. (Also, the “day of shout” sounds even better!) I checked your article about Pentecost but my stance haven’t changed in the sense that I’m still in a waiting position. Since Jesus said that He and the Father are one, which one of them did actually send the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, for me isn’t really a “game changer” concerning the fulfillment of that feast day. But I’d like to add that I can’t shut the possibility of a Pentecost- rapture with 100% certainty out (and I don’t want to) since in my fallen human understanding I could be easily mistaken! Maybe you are right! I’m still holding FoT as a possible candidate either for the time of the rapture or the Second Coming! The only one who surely knows the time of the rapture is the Lord, I could only speculate and wait for events to unfold.
Good article, Greg! I enjoyed it, but I see a problem with you overall point. I read the whole article, and I appreciate your stating multiple times how that fixing a date for the Rapture on 9/23/2017 (or on any OTHER date) violates the biblical doctrine of the "any day" Rapture (aka: imminence). I agree with your strong stance against date-setting, and also your mention of how some, in their zeal to "prove" that 9/23/2017 IS the day, have taken to chipping away at a doctrine which has long been a key defense of the Pre-Trib Rapture. One thing not mentioned overtly in the article (maybe I missed it) is how that such people are effectively joining with post-tribbers and amillennialists in their destructive attacks on imminence. (Oh well, probably a peace-keeping omission, I suppose.)
ReplyDeleteI also agree that the Rapture *could* happen on 9/23/2017 just as it could on any other day. Imminence doesn't *exclude* that date, but just prohibits FIXING it in place from our point of view as "the day it's gotta happen".
But the idea that the FoT-ers (my designation) might be "right for the wrong reasons" still conflicts with the doctrine of imminence, no matter whether one is blowing shofars or "shouting" their lungs out. The contradiction is still in place; whether one sides with the trumpeting Rabbanites or the shouting Karaites, it's still fixing a date (or at least a set day of the year) and is tantamount to destroying imminence. Date setting (or date "bracketing") for ANY reason always destroys imminence.
Still, the article is very good, very much worth reading, very much needed. You're right though; it was bound to draw some flak. Always happens when you say something that's actually important.
This made me laugh:
"also the spirit that the article was written in doesn't sit well with me."
Hmmm... "spirit trouble"! Fwiw, I found the "spirit that the article was written in" to be just fine. In fact it seemed to me that you were bending over backwards to avoid offending anyone. I guess some people just can't handle straight talk that conflicts with their opinion.