Debunking Info


An amazing phenomena has developed surrounding the Revelation 12 Sign which gives those of us who have been convinced of its significance much confidence.   As with anything, there has been numerous authors, websites, and organizations which have put out articles attempting to debunk this sign.  The amazing thing is this.... Their arguments are so weak that they have actually reinforced the legitimacy of the sign!  Think about it... the more that gets written about the sign from otherwise credible sources that fails miserably (often times quite miserably), the stronger the case for the sign becomes.  Yes, the uninformed will default to agreeing with these debunking attempts, but anyone who has actually studied the sign for themselves can see right though these uninformed and sometime outright misleading attempts.  I believe this sign is from God, and therefor  arguments against it must be addressed (2 Cor 10:5), especially considering the huge implications involved.  At the same time we must do all things in love (1 Cor 16:14) and that includes debunking the debunkers in a loving and spirit led way even if in their articles are anything but those things!

Comprehensive Defenses of the Revelation 12 Sign

So before we get started pretty much all of the points in these debunking attempts below have been addressed in the following articles.  It would be good to read these prior to the debunking attempts so that you can see how misleading some of these articles and videos actually are.


Catholic Astronomer / EarthSky.org
January 25th and May 31st, 2017

This is one of the more popular posts that shows up quite high on Google searches.  The big argument is that this alignment is not unique.... but that is provably false by anyone with a computer and a Bible.
Debunking Attempts

Specific Responses


Joel Richardson (The Underground)
February 3rd and 13th 2017

First a short dismissal, then a longer more drawn out version in the sequel.  It's a slick presentation but the plot he weaves does not end in a happy ending for this famous author.

Specific Response


Billy Crone / Prophecy Watchers
May 18th, 2017

The infamous attempt.  Now scrubbed from the internet due to the huge pushback from the Prophecy Watchers audience.
Debunking Attempt
-DELETED FROM THE INTERNET?-
https://rev12daily.blogspot.com/2017/05/i-was-hoping-someone-would-do-this.html


Answers in Genesis
May 31st, 2017

A highly respected organization known for its research and scientific approach ran an article with very little research and a lot of conjecture.
Debunking Attempt

Specific Response


JL Robb - Omega Letter
 June 15th, 2017

The Omega Letter is loved by many in this community, but this article was outrageous in its tone and seemingly lack of research.  Thankfully another writer from the same website set the record straight a week later...
Debunking Attempt

Specific Responses

Dr. Michael Heiser
June 22nd, 2017

A highly educated author with a poorly educated argument.

Debunking Attempt

Response

Koinonia House - Ron Matson
July 31st, 2017

A excellent ministry known for studying the scriptures and digging deep, fails to dig deep and study the scripture thoroughly.

Debunking Attempt

Responses
(see comments section of video above)
https://rev12daily.blogspot.com/2017/08/koinonia-house-video-reponse.html
http://www.unsealed.org/2017/08/why-revelation-12-sign-cant-be-debunked.html
http://www.but-thatsjustme.com/oh-nein-diese-wieder-oh-no/




I believe that all of us studying this are simply seeking the truth... and if it can be biblically shown how we are wrong in any conclusive way, then praise God as that would be information we all need.  But there hasn't been any type of conclusive debunking to date, and the deeper we dig the more connections we seem to find.  So we move forward step by step into a prophetic future that is not crystal clear in focus but currently on firm biblical footing.  With that said I am sure there are more responses to these articles out there, and more debunking attempts I have not seen.  Please help me keep this page as informative as possible by sharing links in the comments below as I will continue to update this page moving forward.

In closing, I would like to share a quote on this subject from Scott Clarke who has logged more hours than anybody researching this sign and connecting the scriptural dots surrounding it:
There has not been a fair, factual, honest or successful debunking of the Revelation 12 sign as interpreted by myself and others like Gary and Jeff from unsealed.org, Brad from https://rev12daily.blogspot.com/ and Daniel Matson of http://watchfortheday.org/index.html. I do not see how a factual, scriptural debunking can even be accomplished. You cannot debunk what you do not understand. Understand the message from those who know and teach the facts first or your debunking attempt is just a white-knuckle attempt to hold on to your outdated preconceived ideas and false man-made doctrines. Fresh eyes have seen something previously unseen. This is how it works in the last days. It's time to freshen up your understanding of bible prophecy.

Comments

  1. Thank you brother for your commitment, time is short! Just a quick correction, believe it should be Joel Richardson, not Joel Rosenberg, video series (The Underground).

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    1. Ha ha, sorry. I was worried I was going to make that mistake.... THANK YOU!

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  2. That was a good idea to put all the debunkers into one location.

    You might want to add Amir Tsarfati to the list. Don't know if you have heard of him...he is a Jewish beliver and I believe lives in Israel but he has become quite popular on the prophecy circuit, he has spoken at J.D. Farag's church. To this end, he has a sizeable platform.

    The video I saw of him debunking the Rev12 sign was more of the same...debunking without any proper research.

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    1. I know Amir well.... have seen him in person a few times at conferences. I only saw one video of him dismissing the sign, and it was in passing. Can you provide a link where he addresses it specifically?

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    2. I would love to see someone do a more thorough, point-by-point rebuttal of Joel Richardson's two YouTube videos, because I the article I wrote (linked to above) really wasn't written as such. Although I discussed many of the typical straw men tossed out by debunkers like Joel, my intent wasn't to comb through HIS videos specifically. In other words, I merely used his two videos as a springboard to refute some of the typical arguments being thrown out by many debunkers such as Joel and others. Although I did deal with several of the points he brought up, I wasn't out to specifically refute his videos in their entirety. There are probably more points in his videos to bring out and dispense with.

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  3. Brad-I saw Amir on a Jerry Toney (he was debunking some of the debunkers in this video).

    Here's the link...Amir comes in at the 6:26 mark:

    https://youtu.be/J7VBsM_8PAk

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  4. Do you have a response to Tim McHyde's debunk post?

    https://escapeallthesethings.com/sept-2017-revelation-12/

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    1. This gentleman does not believe in a pre-trib rapture. He apparently doesn't look very closely at the meanings of the original words in the languages because many arguments are disputed by the text itself when you look at the original languages. Gen 1:14 is a good examples...."seasons" is better translated as "appointed times"... not just parts of year as he suggests. There are so many holes here.... 3 BC isn't even close to Rev 12.... he claims Scott Clarke ignores the pregnancy when the pregnancy is (Jupiter 42 weeks in the womb) is discussed in pretty much every one of his videos and a key lynch pin of what makes this sign unique. There is a blindness going on regarding this sign.... that article was very strange to read. He seems like a genuine fellow, but for the life of me I don't know how you can see what he see's when he looks at what we are looking at! There is much more... just download Stellarium...compare it yourself... I just did...you will find that if someone thinks 3 BC is supposedly a match, then surely 2017 is as well.... as it is much much much more precise to the text and Jupiter is actually in the womb for the length of a pregnancy. 3 BC isn't even close. I feel sorry for anyone who believe what this guy has written and never finds there way to a place which describes this amazing alignment accurately.

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    2. Don't forget John Hagee. Made a nice profit on his Blood Moons books and now calls US astrology nuts.

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  5. Hi,

    I have traded posts on another site with one of your main people here, and it's clear we're just not going to agree. That's perfectly fine. I would, however, make one small request in light of one very pertinent detail.

    Even if someone had a completely Biblical argument but you didn't support it, nor frankly did you want to hear because it goes against your own ideas, you would still find a way to "debunk" it. How about instead of being forced to eat crow when September 24 rolls around, you just approach your ideas as a "possibility" instead of as a foregone conclusion? I do not mean to be rude in the least, but I have written at length about this and my research does not resemble yours even remotely. You claim there isn't a valid argument, but there is. You just have your mind made up and are entirely unwilling to entertain anything else. That's fine, but please at least be intellectually honest and admit you could be wrong. Almost the entire base of verses you use to support this sign are taken out of context. A faulty methodology typically results in a faulty conclusion.

    I also understand there's no reasoning with the majority of the September 23 2017 sign "community" until such a time as that date passes. I just ask you to make a few considerations. And if you don't want to, that's certainly your prerogative.

    God bless!

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    1. How about indicating where someone can read your research? Those of us who didn't create the content here should have the option to read an assess your writing as well as the writings here.

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    2. It's kind of long. I actually wrote about 1/3 of a book about it, as well as all of the other midtrib chapters. But the Revelation 12 sign can be condensed into one relatively short explanation. I don't really feel comfortable promoting my own work on someone else's website. I guess if they say I can tell you where to look, I will do that. (The book is free in PDF form, too.)

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    3. Hello,
      Thanks for your comment. One question...and it has to do with faith. Do you think the Magi knew for 100% what they would find on the other side of the desert, if anything? Do you know for 100% every aspect of the Christian faith? Of course not...you take in the evidence and pray and come to a reasonable conclusion. Therefor anyone who says they know 100% about anything is a fool. One God has access to that type of knowledge. Therefor anyone with any sense of humbleness should admit they could be wrong about this type of thing. But here is the key...not could we be wrong, but is there a reasonable chance we could be correct? Should that small chance that you could be wrong prevent you from believing the evidence shouting that you could be right?? I don't think so. Does the chance you will be rejected and mocked prevent you from sharing your faith with someone who needs Christ? No. The stakes are too high... same with this. Time will tell if this was something or nothing... but unlike you I don't believe 9-24-17 will discredits the sign... it would only proves that the rapture didn't take place on the same day as the sign. There are plenty of signs before the actual item they are indicating... just drive down the highway.

      This is prophecy... most prophetic fulfillments are only known after they occur (even then most people miss them). So of course we could be wrong, just as the heavens are above the earth so are Gods ways about our ways (Isaiah 55:9). But the fact is this, if you look at the evidence there is way more than enough there to believe there is definitely something special about this sign. In fact, I believe it takes much more faith to believe this is all some elaborate coincidence or deception than to believe it simply is what the text describes... a Great Sign in the "ouranos", translated heaven in most Bibles. What does the original word "ouranos" mean you ask? Well, simply put, it is the sky. More specifically, the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it. The sign in is in the sky, right where Gen 1:14 says it will be.

      Thank you for reading the site, if you do have legit Biblical arguments as you claim please send them to my email in a cohesive document and I will respond. Perhaps I will learn something from what you share, but personally I believe that any reasonable person looking at the evidence I have seen would conclude that beyond a reasonable doubt the alignment of 9-23-17 is the fulfillment of Rev 12:1-2. It takes much more "faith" to believe otherwise... God Bless you too.

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    4. Yes, feel free to place a link if you would like. Just please don't try to take over this page with endless comments. Thanks : )

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    5. I would have been content to keep my comment to one, but I didn't want to ignore the person who responded to me.

      As far as your response about faith, it seems asynchronous to the point of your post. Faith is the evidence of things NOT seen, where signs are obviously not faith-based. Your interpretation of signs is faith-based. The signs themselves are not.

      Furthermore, the Bible very clearly explains what this sign means. Scripture always interprets Scripture. You would likely validate that statement by use of your own scriptural interpretations, so you need to be prepared to allow others the same latitude. It could be that neither interpretation is correct, but clearly only one COULD be if they do not lead to the same conclusion.

      You ask if there's a reasonable chance you could be correct - yes and no. Yes in that the rapture could occur on September 23, 2017. No, because the Revelation 12 sign in the heavens does not occur on September 23, 2017. It is scripturally provable beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Revelation 12 sign relates to events that will occur in conjunction with the 7th Trumpet, which is why it was placed in the midtrib chapters. You don't have to believe me... totally cool. But that doesn't mean it isn't scripturally provable. Lots of things are true and people still don't believe them. Since it's not a salvation issue, I won't argue the point. People are free to disagree. That doesn't mean the information isn't knowable, though.

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    6. No, the chance I will be rejected and mocked or called to the carpet for being wrong doesn't matter to me. I have 6 books to my name, most of which name very specific dates related to the 70th Week of Daniel and the Second Coming. Never the rapture, though, because that was a mystery. The rest wasn't. Just because the majority of people won't agree because they have certain preconceived ideas that moderate their interpretations of scripture doesn't bother me in the least. I never ask people to agree with me. I publish the information for awareness and allow people to come to their own conclusions. However, the reason I even posted what I did was because your website words things quite rudely and arrogantly. It's an immediate turn off for anyone that deigns to disagree with you... how dare we!?! You guys have it all figured out. Except you don't, so I was only asking you to maybe not be quite so harsh in your approach to people who don't agree. There's just no need to be condescending.

      They don't have to have a good explanation for why they don't think the September 23 sign is related either to the rapture or the Rev 12 sign to make your ideas more valid. The two things have nothing to do with each other. I'll admit I cringed at some of their explanations, and I don't agree with your position either. But that doesn't add credibility to your claims that someone else should have studied more before they responded, or perhaps not responded at all.

      The book that contains the following is entitled For That Is Determined Shall Be Done. It contains the following:

      Revelation 12 sign discussion
      Discussion of all midtrib chapters (10-15)
      Complete exegesis of Revelation 12
      Complete exegesis of the book of Joel
      From Joel 2:23, discussion of the first month
      Sabbatical cycles
      the entire jubilee research I conducted in another of my books
      and correlating the 70th Week to the sabbatical cycles and jubilee

      A simple internet search will probably tell people how they can find it. There's also a follow-up one-pager that has a chart re: the Rev 12 sign. I'd suggest not starting with that, though.

      Many people disagree with some of my research on principle alone, since I don't subscribe to a fall second coming. Quite frankly, the Bible just doesn't teach it. All the feasts have been fulfilled by and in the person of Jesus Christ since He was the fulfillment of the very law those feasts were written in, but even if they hadn't been the Bible gives the dates for the 70th Week. That's all written in another book. There isn't really a topic I haven't written a book about. That doesn't mean I'm correct in all counts, it just means I've studied prophecy a wee bit. I'm less concerned with people agreeing with me than I am about trying to make people aware. I strive for accuracy, not popularity. We're all adults. I don't need to tell anyone how to think. If I cared that people disagree with me, I'd have never gotten anything written. :)

      Anyway, I don't want to take up your space anymore. God bless you in your endeavors!

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    7. Heather, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think its great you are so passionate about these things... most people aren't. I am far from perfect and I am aware that some of my responses to those critics were not worded the best. If you read them closely you will see that I do try to be loving, however sometimes I fail in living it out. The tone of the debunker seems to get reflected in the response sometimes...and that is my fault. But if you can look past my shortcomings I sincerely believe that this sign deserves to be defended. The risk is over spiritualizing the text to the point it can mean anything... I believe the sun, moon and stars mean just that. Our interpretation is very literal. As for the rapture relating to Rev12, many much more brilliant men came up with that one.... I tend to agree with their findings but we will have to wait together to see if they are correct. For both our sakes our hope they are! Blessings. Please forgive me if my tone is not ideal... Often times I rush my writing due to lack of time and the tone suffers. Much love to you!

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  6. Add this to the list:
    http://www.inquisitr.com/opinion/4373901/total-solar-eclipse-2017-has-some-christians-convinced-its-the-end-of-the-world-according-to-bible-prophecy/

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  7. Kerry J HodgkinsonAugust 5, 2017 at 9:53 PM

    More evidence that the Great Sign is a designed event from God?

    Using Stellarium software, calculated from Jerusalem: Jupiter is "born" of Virgo, about 9 a.m. on the 9th day of September, which is the 9th month of the year. (Jesus' crucifixion started about 9 a.m.)

    When Jupiter exits the "womb" of Virgo, 14 days remain to the completion of the Great Sign. Why did this "birth" take place two weeks early? Two reasons: Eight days after Jupiter is "born", (as in circumcision of newborn males on the 8th day), the Sun moves from the constellation Leo, crossing the boundary, into the constellation Virgo. If the Sun represents God the Father, this could be a reference to Hebrew circumcision and the Abrahamic Covenant which Jesus fulfilled for the Church.

    Why is the Birth 14 days BEFORE the Final Completion? Under Mosaic Law a birthing woman is Ceremonially Unclean up to 14 days after birth of a child. Fourteen days for a FEMALE child, which could represent the Bride of Christ.

    This indicates that God is retelling the whole story of Christ's salvation through the stars and that the "completion" and fulfillment for the Church is IMMINENT-- all is being accomplished, waiting for the final Act of God for His Church-- the Rapture.

    Other interesting signs in the stars? The term "House" is often used interchangeably for the term "constellation" in ancient astronomy. Saturn is also the only visible "wandering star" not participating in the Great Sign, OR IS IT?

    On September 23, 2017, at the time of the Great Sign, the planet Saturn is found in the "House" or constellation Ophiuchus. Ophiuchus is defined variously as a "Strong Man" or a handler or tamer of a Serpent, which brings to mind the following words of Jesus. "But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. How can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his possessions, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house. He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.… --Matthew 12:28-30

    This too may refer to the Rapture, for the Greek word Harpazō has several similar meanings, some of which are: "seize, snatch, carry off, obtain by robbery". The last: "obtain by robbery" matches nicely with Jesus coming "as a thief in the night".

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    1. This is great info Kerry. It occurred to me at church this morning after I read your post that God has set this up in only the way that He can. By that I mean that I'm willing to suggest that everything associated with the Great Sign will be aligned from every possible angle and perspective. Like a multiple-dimensional puzzle where everything is connected to they key piece in the middle. In this case it is an infinitely-dimensional puzzle that points to the beginning of the process of Jesus making all things new.

      I have been surprised and amazed at the number of additional items like your post seeming to "pop-up" with new information about how this all related together. I won't cease to be amazed about new findings and information between now and the time of fulfillment of the sign but I will no longer be surprised. This is happening and nothing can possibly stop it, praise the Lord!

      Michael

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  8. I've been studying this since Scott first explained his thoughts. He suggests that Pentecost was the day of conception, not the Churches ‘birthday’ and that subsequently we are personally conceived at salvation. I reasoned that if it's true that we are conceived at the moment of salvation, it would stand to reason that there must be a literal sealing of a human egg as well. Ephesians 4:30 tells us we are sealed... There is! It’s called a Cortical reaction. At the moment the egg is fertilized there is a hard seal that surrounds it. Please look at it. It's more than just a sealing of the egg, the instant it's fertilized no other is allowed in. This also answers the questions some may have about Christians being possessed, just as in this model, the answer is NO. The Holy Spirit will not share an egg. Also, research the explosion of light at the very minute of conception. It’s simple, we’re all Paternal (of the Father) twins (or whatever the term is for millions born at the same time lol) having been conceived at separate times.

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  9. We have to be a little fair to Ron Matson and Koinonia House. He had Scottie Clarke, the recognized discoverer of this convergence, on their Forge broadcast to discuss it. Ron came away skeptical, but at least gave Scottie a fair shot to make the case. Ron, like so many others, get into a rut on Biblical positions and it takes more to shake them loose. And that is really what is going on. So many like Harold Camping and a score of others have cried wolf in the past that it has entrenched the scoffers.

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    1. Yes... we did a post on that! Thank you, that was cool Ron was willing to do that. God is amazing!
      https://rev12daily.blogspot.com/2017/08/koinonia-house-video-reponse.html

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  10. I was reading an article this evening that listed September 5, 1293 as another time when this sign occurred. Can someone address this please. (I do not have Stellarium on my computer.) Thanks.

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    1. Myrrh,

      If you go to this article on unsealed.org and go about 1/3 of the way down the page you will see a chart that Gary put together showing possible dates when the stars, sun, moon and planets combined to match the description in Rev 12:1-2.

      http://www.unsealed.org/2017/05/the-celestial-c-section-defense-of.html

      What you will see in the chart is that 1293 does not match all of the elements of the sign as described in Rev 12. Only 2017 matches all of the requirements.

      Brad has published reputable list of other Rev 12 related websites on this this site. They are in the left column closer to the top of every page. Any of these sites will give you the best information you can find about the Great Sign of Rev 12.

      God Bless!

      Michael

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    2. I saw the chart a few months back (among the hundreds of articles I have read and Youtubes I have watched) and kept a copy of it, and that chart clearly does indicates that 1293 did not fulfill the requirements. But the article (which, by the way, was pro-Rev. 12 Sign) said:

      "September 5, 1293
      This one is close; Venus, Mars and Mercury are aligned above her head near Leo, Jupiter is in her womb, clothed in the sun, moon at her feet… but it happened 655 years before Israel was re-established. Also, Yom Teruah would have been on Sept. 10-11 according to http://www.hebcal.com"

      The author claims ALL the requirements were met, but dismissed the date because (1) "it happened 655 years before Israel was re-established" and (2) "Yom Teruah would have been on Sept. 10-11." I have never heard that these things would be disqualifiers, or that they even had anything to do with the validity of the sign. What we are solely looking at is : Did all the components of the Revelation 12 Sign happen or not?

      So, I am quite concerned because (as opposed to the chart) that author claims all elements were demonstrated on 9/5/1293.

      I am hoping that you can address this. Where all the elements there in 1293 as the author claimed, or where they not, like the chart claimed?

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    3. Myrrh, I have Stellarium on my computer and I went and looked at the date. The date does not match all of the requirements. Jupiter is (barely) in Virgo's womb on Sept 5, 1293, but being there one day does not match the prophecy. For Sept 23, 2017 Jupiter has been in Virgo's womb for 42 consecutive weeks. Jupiter left Virgo's womb on Sept 9, 2017 (born before labor) but it had been in there for an appropriate period of normal human gestation. When looking at Sept 5, 1293 and going backwards in time Jupiter was not in Virgo's womb. Therefore it does not match the prophecy.

      If you want to look for yourself, Stellarium is free to download and use. Most people only become comfortable with the sign when they go look for themselves in Stellarium or similar.
      Go to this URL. http://www.stellarium.org/

      Also, Brad put together a set of easy instruction for how to Revelation 12 sign in Stellarium.
      https://rev12daily.blogspot.com/2017/07/a-step-by-step-guide-to-viewing.html

      If you are still not convinced that 1293 doesn't match the sign, what is the source of your "quite concerned"? Happy to discuss offline if that's a better option.

      God Bless.
      Michael

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  12. Lynn leaz channel has done two debunki g videos with a professor expert...maybe worth adressing?

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    1. I watched one on her channel with Dr. Faulkner from Answers in Genesis. He was totally off the mark and brought up absolutely nothing that "debunked" the Revelation 12 Sign in any way.

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  13. Surely one has to greatly value this video's heads up for the nations and particularly the dear, richly blessed but now indifferent USA! As for me, after being born again, departing the Roman Catholic institution 41 years ago, (after 26 years mostly of "her" schooling,) I have intently searched the Word of God to see "if IT be so." Much study in recent years has been to search re: timing of the Lord's coming for His own. I cannot deny what I found, prodded by a pal, now with the Lord. I ask you each to examine with a "when," John 6:40, 44, 54, and John11:24 but ESPECIALLY John6:39! Jesus' simple and clear words are to me beyond any choice to ignore or refute. And note John, left to write the definitive Revelation for the last generation has quoted our Lord, Who he knew long and closely. Thank you for looking into these passages. May God keep us faithful unto death, always remembering that no one who trusts in Him will ever be left desolate."

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  14. Sept 30, enigma passed.

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Colossians 3:2-4

Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

1 Peter 2:9

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Philippians 3:20-21

But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.