Jan Markell and Jack Hibbs Address Revelation 12
I am big fans of Jan Markell and Jack Hibbs... both of them have drawn me closer to the Lord through their ministries and I was blessed to meet each of them and have extended conversations with both. So I was saddened to hear that this morning they put out a show together (with Billy Crone) indicating that that they are still not on board with the Rev12 Sign. This video has very few views so far, but keep in mind Jan's show is on 700 stations across the country...so this message will definitely get out there. Please listen to what they say and compare it with all that we have learned. Do they add any new arguments, or is it the same old thing? Are they able to convince you that we are off... or does this increase your resolve all the more?
FYI: I have not listened to this fully yet and will likely add more thoughts when I am able to complete it later today.
UPDATE AFTER LISTENING TO FIRST HALF:
12:30 - They play clip a from Steve Ciccolanti partially explaining Rev 12
14:00 - Jan brings up Gen 1:14, Blood Moons, Eclipse and Rev 12
14:28 - Jack says every conservative theologian worth reading says the child in Rev 12 is Jesus... I guess John Nelson Darby and other fathers of the Pre-Trib Doctrine do not qualify! See here....
15:06 - Jack says since this is written in Chapter 12, then we must be in the middle of the Tribulation. He clearly does not see the parenthetical nature of the chapter. See here...
16:17 - Eric says there has been 83 other fulfillments of this previously! What?? See here...
16:49 - Eric says Rev 12:3-4 isn't talked about by "these folks". See here, here, and here...
17:05 - Jack discusses the dragon... doesn't explain what he thinks it is however...
19:15 - Commercial for Jan's Conference on October 7th.
21:25 - Clip from Adam's Rev12 in 5 Minute Video!!
22:00 - Clip of Jack explaining the prophetic word of God.
23:30 - They admit there are lots of signs in the heavens, but they really won't happen until the Trib.
24:31 - Jack claims we are pulling things out of context, possibly creating a cult.
24:50 - Jack again says Rev 12 is clearly in the middle of the Tribulation and there is a lot of things that need to happen before we ever get to Rev 12:1-3.
25:11 - Eric says if Rev 12 is true then we are already in the Trib, and thus Pre-Trib is false! An unbelievable statement considering the fact that the foundation of the Pre-Trib doctrine was Revelation 12!!!!! See here.
25:38 - They admit God put in place the constellations....but they think we mixed in astrology.
26:00 - Jack reiterates that the signs in the heavens are limited to during the Trib, not before it.
26:15 - Jack compares this sign to contrails by airplanes in the sky???
27:20 - Jan says she thinks its likely nothing will happen on 9/23. Jan, we are all saying that THE SIGN happens on that date.... NOT NECCESSSARILY THE RAPTURE!
28:02 - Jack talks about the specific nature of prophecy fulfillment, including Dan 9:24. and Palm Sunday! This is exactly what we discussed here last week!!!!
29:17 - They discuss the supposed date setting argument again and potential fallout.
30:08 - Jan brings up "No one knows the day or hour". Jan, check out our very previous post!
OK... taking a break! :) Unbelievable! Its almost like this sign is like a parable which only certain people can understand, ala Matt 13:13.
UPDATE 2:
In the second half of the program they bring in Billy Crone who was Jan's guest back in the Spring. Billy's discussion of the sign back then was horrible... it really was. People were not upset because he disagreed with them, they were upset because he so mischaracterized what the sign actually was and those of us who take it seriously. The word 'astrology' was used repeatedly, he claimed it was not unique, and harped on date setting over and over, while deliberately leaving out key verses such as Rev 2:26 and Gen 1:14. With that said, I was saddened to hear about many nasty comments being sent to Jan and Billy after that episode. Those types of comments only serve to harden their hearts. I wrote them an email and they responded back... the reason they responded was because my words were loving and kind. I truly believe if we all had done that perhaps they would have taken a second look, but since so many of us didn't respond correctly they are now able to paint us in the same light as other hateful groups in the country. I don't think that's a fair thing to do, but we gave them the opportunity to play the victim and they spent the last 10 minutes of the show doing it.
I am truly sorry that bad things were said and done to Jan and Billy. The fact that people are showing up to Billy's home is unacceptable. Hateful words are unacceptable. They rightfully received a considerable amount of pushback but I just wish it was done in a more Christ-like way. Billy and Jan...if by some chance you read this... on behalf of my brother and sisters... I am sorry. You may be quite wrong about this subject and you may have treated us all unfairly in your programs, but you surely don't deserve many of the mean spirited things that have been said and done to you.... and that is a very unfortunate thing to be sure. God Bless you.... and may He help you see this Amazing Sign clearly! : )
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FYI: I have not listened to this fully yet and will likely add more thoughts when I am able to complete it later today.
UPDATE AFTER LISTENING TO FIRST HALF:
12:30 - They play clip a from Steve Ciccolanti partially explaining Rev 12
14:00 - Jan brings up Gen 1:14, Blood Moons, Eclipse and Rev 12
14:28 - Jack says every conservative theologian worth reading says the child in Rev 12 is Jesus... I guess John Nelson Darby and other fathers of the Pre-Trib Doctrine do not qualify! See here....
15:06 - Jack says since this is written in Chapter 12, then we must be in the middle of the Tribulation. He clearly does not see the parenthetical nature of the chapter. See here...
16:17 - Eric says there has been 83 other fulfillments of this previously! What?? See here...
16:49 - Eric says Rev 12:3-4 isn't talked about by "these folks". See here, here, and here...
17:05 - Jack discusses the dragon... doesn't explain what he thinks it is however...
19:15 - Commercial for Jan's Conference on October 7th.
21:25 - Clip from Adam's Rev12 in 5 Minute Video!!
22:00 - Clip of Jack explaining the prophetic word of God.
23:30 - They admit there are lots of signs in the heavens, but they really won't happen until the Trib.
24:31 - Jack claims we are pulling things out of context, possibly creating a cult.
24:50 - Jack again says Rev 12 is clearly in the middle of the Tribulation and there is a lot of things that need to happen before we ever get to Rev 12:1-3.
25:11 - Eric says if Rev 12 is true then we are already in the Trib, and thus Pre-Trib is false! An unbelievable statement considering the fact that the foundation of the Pre-Trib doctrine was Revelation 12!!!!! See here.
25:38 - They admit God put in place the constellations....but they think we mixed in astrology.
26:00 - Jack reiterates that the signs in the heavens are limited to during the Trib, not before it.
26:15 - Jack compares this sign to contrails by airplanes in the sky???
27:20 - Jan says she thinks its likely nothing will happen on 9/23. Jan, we are all saying that THE SIGN happens on that date.... NOT NECCESSSARILY THE RAPTURE!
28:02 - Jack talks about the specific nature of prophecy fulfillment, including Dan 9:24. and Palm Sunday! This is exactly what we discussed here last week!!!!
29:17 - They discuss the supposed date setting argument again and potential fallout.
30:08 - Jan brings up "No one knows the day or hour". Jan, check out our very previous post!
OK... taking a break! :) Unbelievable! Its almost like this sign is like a parable which only certain people can understand, ala Matt 13:13.
UPDATE 2:
In the second half of the program they bring in Billy Crone who was Jan's guest back in the Spring. Billy's discussion of the sign back then was horrible... it really was. People were not upset because he disagreed with them, they were upset because he so mischaracterized what the sign actually was and those of us who take it seriously. The word 'astrology' was used repeatedly, he claimed it was not unique, and harped on date setting over and over, while deliberately leaving out key verses such as Rev 2:26 and Gen 1:14. With that said, I was saddened to hear about many nasty comments being sent to Jan and Billy after that episode. Those types of comments only serve to harden their hearts. I wrote them an email and they responded back... the reason they responded was because my words were loving and kind. I truly believe if we all had done that perhaps they would have taken a second look, but since so many of us didn't respond correctly they are now able to paint us in the same light as other hateful groups in the country. I don't think that's a fair thing to do, but we gave them the opportunity to play the victim and they spent the last 10 minutes of the show doing it.
I am truly sorry that bad things were said and done to Jan and Billy. The fact that people are showing up to Billy's home is unacceptable. Hateful words are unacceptable. They rightfully received a considerable amount of pushback but I just wish it was done in a more Christ-like way. Billy and Jan...if by some chance you read this... on behalf of my brother and sisters... I am sorry. You may be quite wrong about this subject and you may have treated us all unfairly in your programs, but you surely don't deserve many of the mean spirited things that have been said and done to you.... and that is a very unfortunate thing to be sure. God Bless you.... and may He help you see this Amazing Sign clearly! : )
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It seemed to me like more of the same, with a negative undertone toward those who are taking a second look at this event. More comparisons to date setters in the past. They said this sign has happened 84 times already, but didn't go into detail.
ReplyDeleteThe main argument seemed to be that the Rev. 12 sign would be mid-tribulation. I'm not a bible prophecy expert, but it always seemed clear to me that the events in Revelation repeated, so I don't know why that could be a reasonable argument? I've been trying to research the chronology of Revelation lately, does anyone know a good rebuttal to the idea that the sign is mid-tribulation?
-Kate
A good rebuttal is to point out the two 3.5 year periods that the Woman is on the run from the Dragon in verses 6 and 14 - pointing out also that this occurs AFTER the child is "snatched away" (harpazo) in verse 5.
DeleteRev. 12 historically has been the primary passage used in support of the pre-trib rapture.
I added a link to a video by Scott above... see the link at 15:06 above.
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBNGTJ8Ir1o
DeleteEvery time I see Hibbs I think he's trying to look like Rick Wright from Magnum P.I.
ReplyDeleteAnd no, they aren't convincing because they don't actually address the details in a logical manner and presenting facts and evidence.
If this is how they address a plain and simple fulfillment of scripture, what else do they address with such shallow attention to detail?
It's interesting how all these big names in the end times speculation industry don't want to acknowledge the Sign on the basis of "speculation". I'm beginning to wonder if it's because it actually ends speculation, and they can't sell books and videos speculating on the very same thing they accuse others of speculating on.
Especially since they'll all have egg on their faces also, because this does not conform with any popular preacher's end times timeline chart - yet the only end times chart that matters is God's.
So it's come to my attention that Hibbs doesn't make a huge amount of money from his ministry. My bad.
DeleteThese are the true deceivers who are most likely tied in with the globalists. Free Masonry disinformation squad. Notice they refuse to cover it fairly? Fake News and could most likely get jobs at CNN.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't go there... I believe God is for some reason keeping them blind to this matter as a way of bring more glory to himself by using "the least of these" to spread His message. I am fully confident they are both strong believers and not actively trying to deceive.
DeleteBrad, sorry you just contradicted yourself: even if they don't 'try to actively deceive anyone' - the fact that they cannot see because God 'is for some reason keeping them blind' qualifies them clearly as non-believers = John 9:39-41! To every true child of God He will generously reveal anything in His Spirit = James 5:1. That's the difference and it is obvious = 1 John 2:19.
DeleteYou are right though if you state the reason for keeping them blind will bring more glory to God as everything created is created for HIS GLORY only = Proverbs 16:4. The word for 'himself' in this verse H4617 'manaeh' means = 'answer' which corresponds to the meaning of 'anathema' G331 in 1 Corinthians 16:22 (= consecrated temple offering). Everything has to serve and add to the glory of God in the end. Much love! :)
Sorry there were transposed digits up there: it must be James 1:5 of course.
DeleteAnnabel.... I am not one of those who says if you dismiss this sign you will be left behind... to me, personally, this is not a salvation issue. I think you can be a believer and yet not see this sign for what we think it is. None of us will be perfected until we are glorified.... But to me it's sad this is the area in which they have seemed to fall short...at such a critical time But I will trust God that He has a plan! I know you may disagree with me on this one but that is how I feel. I love these guys and hope they will soon realize the legitimacy of this sign...even if it takes the actual rapture to do it! We shall see! Much love to you sister!
DeleteBrad, you know as well as I do that Rev12-sign is not a salvation topic in itself. I hope you understood what I was referring to. The unlimited Spirit of God is available for every child of God at a 100% and is neither measured out nor divided. So that means if someone is blind and stays blind deliberately to sth that belongs to Gods wisdom and revelation this simply cannot be with a true child of God according to scriptures. It's the other way round the chain of evidence works here you know. Much blessings, brother! :)
DeleteBrothers and Sisters, are we not all of one Body (1 Corinthians 12:13), and do we not each have our own purpose according to God's plan (1 Corinthians 12:18)? Will we then throw out one member because they cannot see (1 Corinthians 12:21), or choose to dishonor a member that God has chosen to show more honor to (1 Corinthians 12:23)? God forbid, but we should care for that part of the Body that may be lacking (1 Corinthians 12:25), and we ourselves should take care with our words(1 Corinthians 10:12). Let us love one another just as Christ loves each and every one of us (Ephesians 4:32). Not everyone is going to agree with us, and it's ok. This sign on September 23rd will not save you. There is no amount of watching it that will save you. It is only the shed Blood of Jesus Christ that saves us. He did it all for us.
DeleteGrace and Peace,
Steven
Steven dear brother I totally agree with you. But think of the fact that these are persons officially and publicly claiming to deal with the revelation of BIBLE PROPHECY which Rev12-sign is an important part of if perhaps not "the" most important for God in this dispensation. This is not a question of 1 Corinthians 12 and the different gifts in the body. These claim to especially be GIFTED FROM GOD with interpreting prophecy (which is even their main business for years now!) but then staying blind willfully exactly on that issue what they claim to understand best? Wow, now that's not scriptural at all as I understand it. YSIC :)
DeleteSister Annabel, I completely understand what your saying, I haven't been shown proof of a willful intention to deceive, but an age old vanity that is present in all who claim to have somehow gained understanding. I hope we don't miss the point that I think Brad was trying to make, (if I am wrong please forgive me), even being unaware of the facts, they are getting the message of salvation, and the Revelation 12 sign out, and a seed of curiosity is unknowingly planted in their following on their part, whether by ignorance or blindness. If that leads them to our community, let the fruit of our labor stand for itself (Colossians 1:10) I would hope that we all put the Will of God first and foremost (1 Timothy 2:4). I agree, that we need to be aware, and warn others about those who might be in ignorance and help those who are blind with grace (Jude 21-22). But let us also hope that we don't find ourselves unable to see the truth (1 Corinthians 1:25), you will not be left behind if you don't agree with the sign (Romans 11:29).
DeleteSteven
I love them both, but it is clear they are only pecking away at superficial arguments (which have answers) and building up strawmen which can be easily torn down. Their position is difficult, but to not treat it with adaquate research and fairness is truly sad.
ReplyDeleteYes Brad you are right. There is a "sleepiness" in the family of God. I have followed Jack Hibbs teaching and it is excellent in other areas, outside of this blessed revelation from God. Rev 12:5 is the "Church Age gap verse" that interrupts the Jewish Tribulation prophecy in Revelation 12 just as the Church Age today has interrupted the completion of the Jewish Dispensation. The Revelation 12 sign that appears in the Heavens on September 21-23, 2017 declares that Israel will have a "Spiritual Birth” at the mid-way point of the Tribulation period on March 28, 2021 and the Church will have a “Resurrection Birth” immediately prior to the beginning of the Tribulation period on September 21, 2017. You might say the woman has twins! Come Lord Jesus, Come Maranata Come! http://the5993sign.com/
DeleteYes, claiming that we say this has nothing to do with Israel is absurd! You can't explain the sign without mentioning Israel multiple times!! You can't read Micah 5:3 without focusing your talk on Israel!!
DeleteThere are some questions that came to my mind yesterday when I watched this video .......https://youtu.be/fucJkQlgERA
ReplyDeleteWhat questions? Do not be disheartened if the rapture doesn't happen in September.... but at the same time until we get to the point, don't assume it won't happen by then either. From here on out should be a very high watch time!
DeleteCh 11 says "I was given a reed like a measuring rod"...was given, present tense. The chapter then goes on to say the outer courtyard "WILL be given" to the gentiles...meaning it hasn't happened yet. We are further told that God "WILL appoint" the two witnesses & they "WILL prophesy" for 1260 days...again, meaning it hasn't happened yet at that point. I believe there is complete consensus that the two witnesses prophesy during the first 3.5 years, so ch 11 is therefore out or order (if we're going chronologically). Ch11 should have been near ch 5/6 then. If Ch 12 is midpoint because the number 12 is located in the middle, then the events of 11 have to occur near 12...by that rationale. Ch 13 must therefore happen after 12, so the anti-Christ by default doesn't come on the scene until after mid-trib (which we know to be false)....my whole point in this is that it seems that they are doing what they're accusing others of doing....twisting scripture to fit their interpretation.
ReplyDeleteIt's all very frustrating to me....why not ask, "why not?". As Gamaliel said to the Sanhedrin about the early Christian movement "if it is of man, it will fail. If it is of God, you won't be able to stop it....and you may find yourself fighting against God".
I have always enjoyed Jan's work (and Jack's)...as I said frustrating, but again, not a salvational issue. We'll know soon enough I guess.
I don't fault them because if you treat Matthew 24 as containing pre-trib warning signs, you will stick to no one knowing the day or hour as referring to the rapture. If you take the dispensation approach and treat matthew 24 as congruous with daniel's 70th week, you will be left with the hour that no one knows referring to the second coming. I know crone and hibbs both take the former stance so they will never yield to other signs that indicate the nearness of the rapture.
DeleteAnd in order to hone in on when the events of revelation 12 take place, you can also supplement the timing with Daniel 12. The sequence of events in that passage are Michael standing for the people for deliverance and the resurrection of the dead, followed by a 7 year chronology. This would indicate the same chronology as a pre-trib stance for revelation 12:
How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half (3.5 years); and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished...
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
These passages stipulate the duration following the resurrection, to the mid point, and to the end of the 70th week. I still think the sign indicates nearness of the rapture, even if it doesn't occur on that day, so I hope we don't have to deal with months of gloating afterwards as if sign watchers had lost their ultra-imminent hope. There are no winners in that outcome; enduring with patience in this era gives severe wanderlust for the age to come.
Good comments...I agree on the gloating part as well. I think what is frustrating for me is any "study" that some of these guys do is to shoot holes in this as a legit sign. Personally, I think the sign is an indication of God switching his attention from the church back to Israel. I am really starting to lean towards the FoT as the timing. My thoughts are exactly what Robert shared in his video. It sure seems like it is the FoT this year, but we'll see. Thx
DeleteLance dear brother I don't know if you are familiar with the idea that the book of Revelation is not written strictly chronological but in "layers" (Scott Clarke explains that too). Besides, the narrative is like John telling what he just sees and not necessarily in strictly chronological order. I know there is perfect order with Gods narrative but we have to acknowledge that Johns vision is like you would tell a long and winded dream you made notes of in a book on your nightstand. So some of the chapter contain all 7 years, others overlap in telling just the first or second half, others focus on special action in heaven or on earth only. Much love, YSIC
DeleteYes...that was my point exactly. I probably didn't explain it very well, but I was trying to show that events that happen in ch 11 happen at the beginning of the 70th week, even though it is number 11 in the order. Ch 13 has events that take place at the beginning of the 70th week also. The chapter number has little to do with when it takes place. I was taking issue with saying Rev 12 happens mid-trib because of it numerical order of the chapter. Thx
DeleteThanks Lance. I think you explained it well.... by their thinking in a purely linear fashion then Hibbs will find himself in all kinds of knots when looking at Chapters 11 and 13 as well. Think of this....he spends all kinds of time claiming that Rev 12 is only Mid Trib.... but then out of the other side of his mouth claims that Rev 12 is also talking about Christ's birth and ascension! Which is it?? It seems to me that the Rapture disrupts his linear thinking much less than Christ's birth from 2000 years ago!
DeleteThx Brad...i just don't get the resistance to God allowing us to know. It upsets me because, IMO, it really goes against the character of God (keep on asking, keep on seeking....I mean, why say that if it does us no good???). I know I sound like a Rev 12 broken record, but I'm not saying (nor are very many of us) what, if anything, is going to happen. I spelled out my opinion, but I'm not making any life decisions based on that. My utility bills are still going to get paid, etc, etc, etc. Many of these people have spent a good portion of their lives talking about the Lord's return, then when we potentially get there, they shy away. It goes from a study of eschatology to a type of religious gossip. There is a concrete chapter in Revelation, and it looks like it is playing out on 9/23. What if they switched their perspective and studied it from a defense of the sign? I don't know...it just frustrates me because the arguements are tired. Again, not a salvational issue.
DeleteLance, I started writing a response, but it got really really long, so I decided to make it into a standalone post.... check that out and leave me a comment there.
DeleteSome people have said that the alignment is not a big deal and is very common. I decided to take some time to do the math. Let’s calculate some odds shall we?
ReplyDeleteI used the following links to help me:
https://skydoginstitute.com/faq/planetary-movements/
https://www.universetoday.com/23849/jupiter-retrograde/
The Moon travels through all 12 signs about every 28 days. So the odds of being in Virgo is about 1/12.
While the moon is in Virgo (about 4 days) its at the feet for only 1 day so we get odds of 1/4.
The Sun clothing Virgo happens about 4 days out of the year so we have odds of 4/365.
Jupiter travels through all signs once every 12 years so we have 1/12.
Mars takes 2 years to go through all the signs and stays in Virgo for 1.5 months which is 1.5/24.
Venus takes 8 years to go through all the signs and spends 2 months in Virgo which is 2/(12 * 8)
Mercury takes one year to go through all the signs so we have 1/12.
Jupiter is in retrograde about 4 months of the year so we have 4/12.
Jupiter is in retrograde over any single sign is about 1/12.
So simply multiplying each odd we get the following:
1/12 * 1/4 * 4/365 * 1/12 * 1.5/24 * 2/96 * 1/12 * 4/12 * 1/12
The odds are about 1 in a HUNDRED BILLION.
You see folks, in fact this is a VERY RARE alignment. It’s about the CONVERGENCE of all of the signs that have been given to us including the blood moons, the eclipse, the special dates and so on.
This is funny because Steve Sewell just made up this exact calculation of odds in his recent video (at app. minute 9:00) released just yesterday! :)
DeleteMaybe Steve saw this post? It’s in a Facebook watch group...
Deletehttps://www.facebook.com/groups/250462015323353/permalink/490039848032234/
Such incredible odds! Thanks Ed for putting it together!
Also check Brads calculation here:
Deletehttp://unsealed.boards.net/thread/594/all-odds
One Hundred Billion Days converts to 273,972,602 years, about. This means that, statistically speaking, this happens, at most, ONCE in ALL OF HUMAN HISTOY and then some. Kind of like the orbit of the Conception Comet, Just sayin' Maranatha!
ReplyDeleteHello
ReplyDeleteI am just getting to this article but I just wanted to thank you for your hard work and dedication to this subject. I think I feel the same as you - I love Jan and Jack and Billy to death but I feel like they are giving knee-jerk, out-of-context reactions to the subject and specific proponents of it. The one thing that floored me (made me sad) is when Jack emphasized how the other way has ALWAYS been be3lieved etc. (I forget the exact quote) My first thought is that we ought to believe God over man and think critically being led by the Spirit etc. Anyway, I still love them, and time will tell in the next few weeks. It will be interesting to see whether we are still here on the 24th (but is the sign measured by Israel time?) and what certain people will make of it. Seems to me that a rapture along with corresponding signs in the heavens would be the ultimate *Sign* to Israel/ non-believers, else how else would non-believers know to look for a sign?
My thinking could be off - I'm just asking that since signs are for non-believers - how and why would they discover them (I assume they are not looking). Now I am wondering if I just misquoted scripture. The only sign I can think of for non-believers is tongues (but I heard Amir mention that idea). Are there other instances of signs in the Bible directed at non-believers or am I simply confusing myself???
Thanks!
I agree with you. I don't think anyone not looking is going to walk out on 9/23 and go "oh look!! The Rev12 sign"....not to mention it is a daytime sign. I, too, think something could potentially happen before, and then people would start searching for answers. Some will fall for the great deception, but some might see the great sign....and therefore study further. Anyway...pure conjecture on my part.
DeleteAs for Israel (and the Jewish people), they don't even acknowledge the New Testament (obviously speaking about non-messianic Jews) therefore, it's unlikely they even are aware of Rev 12.
The crazy thing about that quote is how off it was.... Jack is a great defender of the PreTrib rapture and I am sure he is well aware of John Nelson Darby's role in the matter.... but I am sure he would be shocked to know that Rev 12:5 was so critical to the movement early one. Only after years of acceptance did the Rev 12:5 connection to the rapture fade away as less concrete (yet easier to explain) verses became more popular in explaining the doctrine. But you can go back and read the quotes.... the fathers of this doctrine believed with their whole hearts that Rev 12:5 was the KEY INDICATOR of the Pretribulational timing of the Rapture.
DeleteI must add, Darby was the key proponent of that view (among others in the years following).... and the word Harpazo is in the verse as well!
DeleteFor the record, I only watch Scottie and one other person and I agree that Scottie is saying it is a SIGN Only, and that he is NOT saying that it is Definitely the Rapture! (the other guy I watch is but I don't necessarily believe he is correct, lol)
ReplyDeleteI just called Hibbs directly and told him that this is typical. Present your side only and do not let the other side speak. I challenged him to an open debate and left my number.
ReplyDeleteThat should be an interesting response either way!
DeleteI would like to see a more thought out reply by Hibbs and others than what they are responding with now. It would exemplify unity and love in the body of Christ.
DeleteI do feel upset about what happened with Pastor Billy Crone - with people finding his home address and harassing him. But that cannot be lumped in as if it relates as one event over all. There are "crazies" everywhere in all situations making others look bad.
it is unclear to me the purpose in posting links to people who are unobjective in their analysis. It may even be unwise....
ReplyDeleteUnderstandable... Here is how I look at it. This is site is about news about the Rev12 Sign. This is clearly news about it... even though we may not like what they say. Jan has huge influence and Pastor Hibbs is very well known as well.... its something we should be aware of and not put our head in the sand.
DeleteWith that said, I have found that God has used these types of false, unfair, mistreatments and mischaracterizations to actually strengthen the resolve and passion of those of us who follow the sign. Every time a scholars address the sign and FAILS to debunk it only adds credibility. When the best of the best try to tear it down, but use wrong information or leave out facts, when their arguments are full of more holes than a colander... well to me that is another confirmation, and in the end an encouragement. We should listen to their arguments with an open mind because that is what we want them to do for us.
regretfully, the "loyal opposition" (see Woody Allen) is elevated to one of equality. In the presentations offered on this blog, one is staggered by the amount of work Scotti et al have applied in alerting our brethren. One cannot say that about the "nay sayers" The "debunkers" have not shown anything close to the diligence and robust scholarship. It brings to mind the fable of the "dog in the manger" It is disturbing that brothers are accusing brothers. There is a rush to judgment that is foolish and dangerous. I understand the world is engaged in this type of folly...but are we not called out of this world and it systems?
DeleteI have to say that I have listened to Scottie and others very carefully, prayed, looked up scripture and have been trying to decide what to believe. I listened to Jan's show thinking if there was a reason to NOT believe in this sign maybe they would give reasons. They didn't have biblical reasons, only opinions.(in my opinion lol) I could see all the places that they hadn't looked into what people were saying about it, and hadn't really even listened to what Scottie and the others, like your website, meant. So it made me really go toward the side of believing that this is an important sign from God. He can use even that show. Thanks for all the work and information!
DeleteExactly... Yes... when the best of the best fail to debunk something, then the only logical conclusion remaining is that it is most likely true.
DeleteI haven't listened to Jan before, but does she talk about all the other end time indicators such as the 120/100/70/50 year scenarios in 2017? I wonder if the rev12 sign cynicism has caused people to switch off to these other signs as well.
ReplyDeleteAfter all what was said before and proves that again and again Rev12-sign could not be seriously debunked (because it consists of the two infallible parts of the stars in Heaven and the word of God LOL!!) I can only agree with Billy Crone about what he said at the end of this show about "Christian" stalkers that harrassed and threatened him and his family privately which wasn't commented yet here. This is now sth that a true brother (or sister) really doesn't do. As haughty, ignorant or obstinate one may think Crone is with regards to the Rev12-sign: there is absolutely no reason for such a behaviour. Gamaliel the unbelieving Jew had more wisdom than obviously such people have who do this to Billy Crone (Acts 5:38-39). Such people indeed cannot be our brethren.
ReplyDeleteAMEN! Let all that we do be done in LOVE.
DeleteIt seems the industry of church and career ministry has a strangle hold on many. The pull of success and the low water reasoning are bad for the eye's and ears of most. Nickolatians never let go...it's why they come to work. Feeding off of control of others while at the same time proudly displaying their humility button at every opportunity. It's an "End of Days" illness that many of us were raised on. So Brad, your right....we would all want others to be loving and praying for our release of the enemies grasp. Shalom Friends,....stay encouraged and O man...let's do justly, love mercy...and walk humbly with our Elohim. Dan
ReplyDeleteThanks Dan... appreciate your thoughts.
DeleteYay! Finally some common sense and logic, need more of it in the church. Thank you Jan Markell and Jack Hibbs for speaking truth!
ReplyDelete!
Is that you Jan?
DeleteThanks to ALL my watchful brothers and sisters in Christ for the basics:
ReplyDeleteThere is only one important Messenger: Yeshua HaMashiach (Mal 3:1)
And only one message of value: our new identity in Him (Gal 2:20)
And only one path to Truth: Him (John 14:6)
Likewise,
There is only one enemy: Satan (1 Pet 5:8)
With only one simple weapon: Doubt (Gen 3:4)
And only one target: our new identity in Christ (2 Cor 11:3)
Study the Word (2 Tim 2:15)
Watch...It's definitely time to look up! (Luke 21:28)
Point to the signs! (1 Thes 5:11)
Pray to be counted worthy... (Luke 21:36)
The Holy Spirit has this...and will take from here. (Mark 13:11)
Maranatha
Hamerick CE is the person who put Billy Crone's address online. That was unnecessary and vindictive. God forgive him for doing that.
ReplyDeleteIn some simplicity that is in Christ, let us consider and remember that the Book of Revelation itself warns us to not add to or take away from the words of this prophecy, so I believe, sorry to say, that these above- mentioned debunkers of the Rev. 12 sign are definitely "taking away" from what Scripture clearly states about that beautiful, soon-to- be-fulfilled event. Maranatha!
ReplyDeleteI guess Jan and Jack were right...
ReplyDeleteYes they were
ReplyDeleteSeptember 23rd rapture debunked
ReplyDeleteThe woman in Revelation 12:1 is Mother Israel the Zodiac and represents the twelve tribes of Israel in this current earth age. From verse one she is looking forward in time to the second heaven earth age that is to come and that is now. Verse two explains the plan of salvation that is to come through Jesus Christ the "Child". Verse 3 goes on to explain the kingdom of satan during the same time period. The woman described in verse 6 is the Church or believers in this the second heaven earth age. This chapter is widely misunderstood by most that try and place any chronology to it. It travels into all three heaven earth ages and is not placed in chronological order. If you don’t understand that there are three heaven earth ages you will not rightly divide much of the Bible and especially Revelation chapter 12. Many try and place a faulty chronology on the entire book of Revelation and they fail miserably. The book of Revelation jumps back and forth from one age to the next and you have to be sharp to rightly divide it. Revelation 12:7 describes a war in Heaven that took place in the first heaven earth age and it was a great dividing line in the dispensations of time on the earth. Every time the words “FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD” are used the Bible is speaking of the Greek word “Katubol” or the great overthrow or casting down of satan. He led a full one third of Gods children away from God that worshiped him (satan) as god. There is no mention of rapture here or anywhere else in the Bible. The time will come and go and they will be the fools that predicted another rapture that didn't happen...
MV 2017 TheRemnantSeed