A Painting Analogy Regarding the Rev12 Sign...
I posted the following directly on our Facebook Page yesterday. Many of you have probably seen it already, but I am putting it up here for all those who don't use that platform. Thank you to everyone who left such wonderful comments below that post... it warmed my heart greatly but I can take no credit.... That was all Him.
: )
A few people have asked why our brothers and sisters get upset when some prophecy professionals disparage this sign without even taking the time to look at it closely... Here is an analogy that may help you understand.
Imagine that your one true love is an amazing artist. Your Love paints you a beautiful picture with layer upon layer of meaning. It is the most beautiful painting you have ever seen and it moves you to tears just thinking about the effort and planning and care that was put into creating this painting for you. Then just as you seem to fall deeper and deeper in love with The One who painted this picture, a very prestigious group of art critics walk in.
These critics are the best of the best, they have studied art for years. They walk in and start picking apart the painting. Without even getting close to it they declare that it is garbage. They say that it is just random paint splatters, no meaning behind it... Some even say it is evil! Together they start warning everyone in the room by saying, "Do not look at this painting, it's dangerous!"
Yes, these critics may be the 'experts', but you know the painter, and you know the painting's value and meaning... and you have looked closely and you believe with all your heart they are wrong. So you are mixed with a series of emotions because you want them to recognize the glory of the painter and the beauty of the painting that has been revealed, but you also have anger for them disparaging something so beautiful and meaningful.
Their haughty attitude causes a level of anger, but in the end your attempts to get them to see fail, and you must simply trust that someday the true beauty will be discovered by all... Thankfully some other regular folks eventually walk close enough to the painting to see for themselves... and sure enough, they are amazed right along with you!
The debunkers create similar reactions in many of us... I think the more confident you are in the Revelation 12 Sign the more it bothers you when people, especially the experts, disparage it. But in the end we must rely on the Holy Spirit to LOVE them, even if they seem to act like our enemies at times. After all, the true message of the painting tells us that the artist could be coming for us very soon!!
Daniel Matson added an amazing layer to this analogy with the following comment:
Keep your hearts focused on JESUS. Times may get dark, but He is THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD!
A few people have asked why our brothers and sisters get upset when some prophecy professionals disparage this sign without even taking the time to look at it closely... Here is an analogy that may help you understand.
Imagine that your one true love is an amazing artist. Your Love paints you a beautiful picture with layer upon layer of meaning. It is the most beautiful painting you have ever seen and it moves you to tears just thinking about the effort and planning and care that was put into creating this painting for you. Then just as you seem to fall deeper and deeper in love with The One who painted this picture, a very prestigious group of art critics walk in.
These critics are the best of the best, they have studied art for years. They walk in and start picking apart the painting. Without even getting close to it they declare that it is garbage. They say that it is just random paint splatters, no meaning behind it... Some even say it is evil! Together they start warning everyone in the room by saying, "Do not look at this painting, it's dangerous!"
Yes, these critics may be the 'experts', but you know the painter, and you know the painting's value and meaning... and you have looked closely and you believe with all your heart they are wrong. So you are mixed with a series of emotions because you want them to recognize the glory of the painter and the beauty of the painting that has been revealed, but you also have anger for them disparaging something so beautiful and meaningful.
Their haughty attitude causes a level of anger, but in the end your attempts to get them to see fail, and you must simply trust that someday the true beauty will be discovered by all... Thankfully some other regular folks eventually walk close enough to the painting to see for themselves... and sure enough, they are amazed right along with you!
The debunkers create similar reactions in many of us... I think the more confident you are in the Revelation 12 Sign the more it bothers you when people, especially the experts, disparage it. But in the end we must rely on the Holy Spirit to LOVE them, even if they seem to act like our enemies at times. After all, the true message of the painting tells us that the artist could be coming for us very soon!!
Daniel Matson added an amazing layer to this analogy with the following comment:
I would also add that the Revelation 12 Sign is but a portion of the painting that is getting the attention and that the experts are missing the whole 360 degree mural that surrounds them.Thanks Daniel... I couldn't agree more. And thanks again to everyone for sharing that post and for the nice comments yesterday. I am glad to help in anyway I can... It is hard when so many people who we look up to try to tear us down, but in the end we need to remember that we are only looking for the approval of God, not mere men and women. If they could Biblically make a case why this is wrong then I would happily submit, but it they clearly haven't done that (or even come close for that matter) so we must press on with hopeful expectation and most or all... LOVE.
Keep your hearts focused on JESUS. Times may get dark, but He is THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD!
I came across this article on the Rapture Ready website against the Rev 12 sign. It basically calls it astrology. I personally could not understand his argument and no scripture was offered only Revelation 12 itself. I have never heard of the author, Bill Randles, but I am UK based and perhaps he is better known among my American brothers and sisters!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.raptureready.com/2017/08/29/revelation-12-dont-go-by-astrology/
Mark
That might be the worst rebuttal I have ever seen. His only argument against it is that it is astrology. He literally does not offer anything else. The author actually comes out and says that looking at the signs God has placed in the heavens, using the heavenly bodies that God created for signs, is a sin! So I suppose if the Bible says there will be signs in the Heavens (which it does say), we are forbidden from lifting up our eyes and looking at them lest we fall into sin and witchcraft? Is he arguing that the Pharisees should have stoned the wise men for practicing divination when they used the Star of Bethlehem to find the Christ child? Should we be condemning the wise men as wicked pagans instead of celebrating them? His argument makes no sense at all.
DeleteIt is such a shame. I visited rapture ready on a daily basis for years. It never crossed my mind that when the time finally came they would miss the signs entirely and be caught off-guard, or that they would condemn those who were watching for it! All this time I thought we were on the same side, but apparently not. There's not the tiniest bit of charity in these articles either. We're either on their side, or we are wicked pagans who believe in astrology and witchcraft. Someone is certainly trying to divide the body of Christ and tear it asunder, but it is not those who are watching the signs.
After the rapture we will all stand before Christ's judgment seat and be held accountable for what we have done. What will these people say when they are held accountable for condemning God's signs as sinful and wicked, and condemning those who were watching for His return as astrologers? Do they somehow think that God isn't going to notice, or that maybe He won't mind? Person after person is using "astrology" to condemn this argument and all those who get near it. Have all these teachers considered even for a moment what is going to happen if they are wrong?
I thought the mockers and the scoffers would come from outside the church, or at the very least outside the pre-trib circle. It's very sad.
Jonathan
The article on RR is only the introduction! His whole exposition can be found here:
Deletehttps://billrandles.wordpress.com/
An exposition on Rev 12. Some interesting points, but he seems to be missing the bulls eye.
It's just sad.
Stephan
I too read the recent article on RR. There was an article many months ago that was more balanced. http://www.raptureready.com/2017/02/12/the-great-sign/
DeleteBrad, this makes me think of some art experts looking for official prove as fake painting, scratching some color from the surface, technically examining it under the microscope and by ultrasound but not seeing the subject of the picture nor understanding its message or looking at the signature. ;)
ReplyDeleteIf only they would get close enough to examine it in such a way. I believe we are the ones who have done that, therefor we are the ones confident that it is authentic! We have examined it... we have looked at the evidence.... we have studied it... so we are the ones who know it is not a fraud. So then, when we step back and take it all in, then it is that much more beautiful because we have done the background and have great confidence that it is the real thing!!!
DeleteYou're right, Brad... It's just feeling like - you know, somebody who KNOWS the picture is no fake but somehow presenting it as a (private) loan to an art gallery to make it accessable to the public; and then there are the renowned art experts of the gallery fiddling with it "to prevent the public from a counterfeit" (but finding out nothing fake of course) but they are the ones getting the most public attention in the area of art world and perception on TV and talkshow debate. It's somehow annoying... ;)
DeleteI saw that too & I couldn't follow what his point was either. He had bullet points not making any point with regards to Revelation 12 other than making a sweeping generalization that it's astrology.
ReplyDeleteIf Revelation 12 is not pointing to 9/23 then by all means, make that argument. Show us where we are wrong. Demonstrate the true interpretation. If I am wrong then I will admit it and change my view. If all of this is nonsense then I want to know that as soon as possible. I don't want to spread error or get people's hopes up for nothing. I am 100% willing to listen to proof against this sign.
DeleteBut not one person is offering such proof. Instead they condemn it as "astrology" and move on, as if that means Revelation 12 can be ignored and doesn't need an interpretation. They claim it has happened before, but they provide no dates. If they do provide a date (which is rare) it is trivial to use Stellarium to demonstrate the date is wrong and only 9/23 is right.
It is just so hard for me to believe they are doing this in good faith. In the past when I have heard rapture theories I have always taken them seriously and checked them out, because that is one thing I cannot afford to get wrong. Dismissing any theory out of hand is very risky, because once the Lord returns there are no do-overs. It is usually easy to disprove rapture date theories - but not this time. This is different, and I will believe so until someone can prove otherwise.
Jesus condemned the Pharisees for not being able to discern the signs of the times. I do not want Him to condemn me as well. Shouldn't the fear of God drive us to be very careful in this matter?
Jonathan
Jonathan.... I literally could not agree more with every single one of your points. Thank you.
DeleteI'm very thankful for this site and others that have facilitated an open discussion and objective examination of the facts. It has been a struggle to deal with the apathy of fellow believers and leaders who could have made so many more aware of this. In the end, we all have to wrestle with these things and own them for ourselves and it has been a true blessing to have forums like this for encouragement down the home stretch. Finish strong.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, you can now add Lamb & Lion ministries to the list of nay-sayers. Lamb & Lion is a great website in my opinion, but Nathan Jones released an article entitled "Is the great sign of Revelation 12 valid?". His arguements:
ReplyDelete1. The child that is "raptured" is Jesus....accept that, He wasn't raptured AND He wasn't a child when he ASCENDED in front of the eyes of his disciples...not to mention the many studies that reveal the possibility of this being the church.
2. Rev 12 is mid trib - C'mon....at least study it. So it's both mid-trib AND an allusion to Jesus' birth/ascension...which is it? Part of the sign is an allusion & part of the sign is an actual event...which is it?
3. Many of the people teaching this are "steeped" in extra-biblical items....Nibiru, bible codes, rapture dreams, #23 in movies, etc, etc.....at least that's a new argument!?!? Undoubtedly, there are some people floating some crazy theories, but this is no reason to avoid a serious study. This is where HS discernment comes in I believe.
The most shocking thing to me was his last two sentences, and I quote "Who wouldn't hope that on that day we will be celebrating the Bride reunited with Christ? But, I'm not putting any stock in an alignment of stars to reveal that day"
Matt 2:2 "Where is the one who has been born king of the jews? We saw his STAR when it rose and have come to worship him."
If a star was good enough for Jesus' birth...it's good enough for his return to get us, IMO.
Crazy isn't it? Nobody questions the Magi followed the Star to Jesus.
DeleteThey said they "saw His star".
God did it once, why wouldn't he do it again for the Second Coming?
If you just look at it logically, it makes sense.
Matthew 2:1,2 - After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi[a] from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”
(Steve)
It is the strangest thing to me....doesn't mean anything is going to happen, but are you at least going to consider it?? If the church was removed on 9/23 (I AM NOT SAYING WE ARE BTW...just for arguments sake), and a person was left behind, they would see the following:
Delete- 120 years from....
- 100 years from...
- 70 years from...
- 50 years from....
-40 years from....
4 blood moons (2014-2015)
The star of bethlehem appeared in 2015 (I think that's the year)
4 of 7 feasts fulfilled, with the all of the above pointing to the next one on 9-21/22,
AND then you add this alignment in.
I think that person would say, "How did I miss this?"
Concerning the point that "Many of the people teaching this are steeped in extra-biblical items..." It should be obvious that if the powerful and respected leaders of our day make it clear that this entire topic is illegitimate, sinful, and harmful (which they have done), then many people will listen to them. It's really not surprising that those who gravitate toward this are those on the fringes, who are willing to entertain ideas that no one else will. The 9/23 theory is never going to be "respectable", and so very few "respectable" people will get anywhere near it.
DeleteWho did God reveal the birth of Christ to? Shepherds - people who were disrespected, ignored, and unloved. They were the only ones willing to listen (aside from the Gentile wise men).
The problem is that many people are more interested in imposing their own views on Revelation 12 than studying it deeply and seeing what God truly has to say. Those who seek the truth diligently, with all their heart, will find it. Those who don't will miss it - to their great regret. All these debunkers have access to the same Bible the same internet, and the same resources we do.
Over the past six months I've realized that many of my prior thoughts about eschatology have been completely wrong. I've had to change a lot of opinions that I've held for a long time. But I would rather do that and admit I was wrong than hold onto the wrong answer and miss all this. You only get one shot at this, after all.
Jonathan
Lance, Steve, this has ever bothered me: The Magi must have been exile Jews from Babylon, no doubt (because no Gentile would have wished to examine what they waited for at that time: the Messiah of the Jews to be born). OK but let's read further now in Matthew 2 when they come to Jerusalem asking Herod about the "king of the Jews": 3 When King Herod heard this HE WAS DISTURBED AND ALL JERUSALEM WITH HIM. 4 When he had called together ALL THE PEOPLE'S CHIEF PRIESTS AND TEACHERS OF THE LAW, he asked THEM where the Messiah was to be born. 5 “In Bethlehem in Judea,” THEY REPLIED, “for this is what the prophet has written: 6 “‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel."
DeleteYou see the parallel today? Herod of course was disturbed because of this announcement of a literal rival king. But the Jews? When the "experts" (= "chief priests" of bible prophecy!) are today ASKED about Rev-12-sign, they are DISTURBED AND ALL THE (= religious church) TEACHERS WITH THEM! Why? Because it's DISTURBING FOR THEM (! not for us!) as this means the return of the true Lord of the vineyard whom they have left the place (i.e. the church) in ruins while he was traveling into a far country (Matthew 21:40-41). They KNOW what he will do to them if they just were interested in exploiting the vineyard to their own benefit and as shepherds not feeding the flock "in due season" but leaving them asleep or beating them up (Ezechiel 34:2-4). They are DISTURBED altogether because they KNOW about the Day of the Lord and the rapture, they KNOW the scriptures (like the Jerusalem teachers and chief priests knew about Micah 5) but then DO NOT EXAMINE the sign which would be so easy to do (as they equally didn't 2000 years ago simply ask the Magi about it and come with them to Bethlehem to verify this!) because IF THEY DID, it could easily be a CONFIRMATION OF SCRIPTURE to them now, meaning imminent punishment of the Lord and immediate loss of all their power and reputation after ) 9/23. So they declare by denouncing it in public: FOR THAT WHICH MUST NOT CANNOT BE!
The Jews from Jerusalem would have easily had the opportunity to prove Micah 5 ON SPOT. They didn't because of WHAT? Fear apparently. What I don't know that doesn't exist. Like not going to the doctor for diagnosis. 30 years later when Jesus already preached to them, they couldn't verify Him through scriptures anymore because He had moved to Nazareth after the child murder of Herod and they didn't recognize it from scripture anymore (John 7:52). So this is Gods message to the "experts": Either you verify my message right now or you will be late in recognizing it from the bible. Your bad.
Good points all...I especially love Jonathan's point about the revealing to the shepherds. They were culturally the bottom rung of their day. I think the source allows faith to come into play. If God appeared in the heavens and said "Look at this great sign" , not an eye would be turned, but where there is doubt, faith has to take over (with discernment obviously).
DeleteLance - I was reading Deut 33 this morning, and was interested again to see that Moses died at 120. We generally take Genesis 6:3 (his days shall be 120 years) as being the key verse for the 120 year discussion.
DeleteHowever - it is interesting to see that Moses lived 120 years:
- Moses did not get to enter the promised land, but he was able to observe some of it from on high. Moses represented the mosaic law (and thus judaism in general)
- Moses brothers entered the promise land.
- Moses was the one who had 'struck the rock' (of salvation as it notes in Deut 32).
- Moses was the one who had been entrusted with the law - and the first to see God face to face. This represents Israel who were the first nation entrusted with the law and saw his signs and wonders.
- However the remainder of Israel were the 'foolish' ones who had rebelled against God, yet their generations were able to enter the promised land, while Moses - who was the 'most humble man on earth' was not allowed to.
The type is amazing:
- after 120 years (from zionist congress), it is the 'foolish nation' (gentiles) who will enter the promised land
- the people of Israel (whose hearts are hardened) will not as they were the ones who 'struck the Rock of our salvation'
- however they will get a chance to glimpse the promised land (they will look upon him who was pierced and will mourn for him...).
The difference is, that the ones who turn to him WILL see the promised land!
Anyway - the alignment might not be fully right, but interesting nonetheless.
That's awesome....those darn patterns again?? Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Seems like there is a new connection discovered each day. I'll be reading that tonight!
DeleteI think another aspect of the frustration experienced is a righteous anger / sadness that the arguments used by debunkers are not legit. This means they are debunking for the sake of debunking - not for the sake of discovering truth. For instance:
ReplyDelete1. They say the man child is Jesus and therefore the sign is meaningless. Even if it is Jesus, isn't that still a special sign? That God would draw our attention to His Son at that particular time in history?
2. They say it is Astrology - but they are all over the star of Bethlehem.
3. They say "we can't know the day or the hour" but what does that have to do with the sign? The sign is going to be there either way. Should we try to hear God in what he is saying?
4. etc.etc.etc
Amen on all points....especially number 2.......and 4. : )
DeleteOn the bright side, word has at least gotten out that the painting exists. The experts may have rejected it and gone on their way, but if all this is true and it does come to pass, they won't be able to say they had no idea this was even a thing. They saw the painting, and they had all the tools they needed to properly recognize it. There was no shortage of evidence that testified to its validity, and that evidence was easy to find and readily available.
DeleteHonestly, being completely ignorant about all of this is probably better than knowing about it, trying to stop people from studying it, and telling people that it is sinful and wrong.
Jonathan
even more frustrating is that they are leading other Christians away from the truth.
DeleteJonathan, your last sentence can be translated into scripture: This is exactly what our LORD Jesus said to the pharisees in John 9:39-41. Stay blessed! :)
DeleteWow Brad, amazing, really amazing perspective. We need to put this in the Book of Brad!
ReplyDeleteBeautiful analogy of the painting. As for me, I absolutely know this sign is about the Manchild being Raptured, which consists of Jesus, the first fruits, and all the redeemed, because I know who the Woman is. The Woman is God, the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity. Israel is called God's son, always a "he". It was the Holy /Spirit who conceived Jesus in Mary's womb. A man cannot conceive a child, and God is very specific about gender. Lady Wisdom, in Proverbs, and the Wonder Woman in the Rev, 12 sign, are One and the same Person - Ruach, of Old Testament fame, and New Testament revealed in all Her glory giving birth to Her Manchild, the Church, clothed in Heaven's star-studded jewelry. "He make the the barren woman .....to be a joyful mother of children" and "the barren woman" has more children in the end than the "other woman" (represented as Eve, who listened to Satan and caused the Woman, the Holy Spirit, who has the Holy seed, in the Garden of Eden to be constantly under attack by the servant, the devil, who made war with her seed from the Garden of Eden, to Rev12. But, praise God, we see Her here, in all Her glory, being victorious in giving birth to the Manchild. SHE WINS THE WAR!
ReplyDeleteSerpent, not servant, excuse me.
ReplyDeleteEve's seed became corruptible. The other Woman in the Garden, the Holy Spirit, was the Tree of Life- the Woman with the Holy seed, protected by the Father when He rejected Adam and Eve from the Garden and barricaded the Tree of Life from them, because of their sinful nature they has taken on as a result of disobedience in partaking of the other Tree- the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. They chose death over the Life of God - life in the Spirit, which would have caused them to have never experienced death. It was a sad day indeed for all humanity in their choice. Choose life in the Spirit now people, before it may be too late. Choose Jesus, the One who went before us and gave HIs all. He has redeemed us from the curse in the Garden, when man chose to bear a corruptible seed, the seed of Satan, over the Seed of the Woman, the incorruptible Holy seed of God through the new birth from our Heavenly Mother, the precious Holy Spirit
ReplyDeleteI view the critics and naysayers through the perspective of Jesus at the cross. Some knew he was the Son of God, many others rejected Him even unto His death. Then after Jesus died, mouths dropped open, people fell to the ground and cried, surely this was the Son of God. Nothing new under the sun, history repeating itself in modern day, only now the wise virgins will go to heaven in the rapture and the foolish left behind will drop to the ground and cry, surely this was the rapture of the church.........Alan
ReplyDelete