Day nor Hour Responses
If you haven't checked out the comments section of the Omega Letter Response Article from Friday, I would encourage you to do so. There has been a fantastic discussion going on, and I want to pull one of the comments out and make it a standalone post here...
Here is the link if you want to check that article out and see all the new comments:
https://rev12daily.blogspot.com/2017/06/its-not-astrology-omega-letter.html
So here is the comment that I wanted to pull out to discuss...
One of my main problems that I cannot seem to win on is the "cannot know the day or hour" this is such a hang up with the old timers, the young people don't dwell on this statement much. I pray that there is something catastrophic that wakes everyone up that is obvious to the body before rapture happens. (Thanks to ArtiPrinted for posting this great comment!)
To me there are several responses that are valid, I will put them in a rough order of weakest to strongest (although I do believe all are valid).
1. It says "Day nor Hour", not "Month nor Year". We can know the season....just not the exact timing.
2. That statement was given during the old covenant, prior to the gift of Revelation. Under the new covenant this knowledge has been potentially revealed.
3. If we can't know the timing why did Paul say "at the last trumpet" in 1 Cor 15:52?
4. If we can't know anything about timing, why then does Rev 3:3 strongly imply we can? Similarly with 1 Thes 5:4? These verses are ignored by most on the other side of the discussion...
5. Day nor hour is a specific Jewish idiom referring to the Feast of Trumpets. This could explain why the trump is referenced in rapture verses like 1 Thes 4:13 and 1 Cor 15:52. The last trump is the 100th blast, a long, loud, special one, blown during that feast. You can then explain further if you they want to know about the sighting of the new moon and how nobody knew when it would be seen so the could start the party...etc.
6. There are 7 Feasts of the Lord with seems that Jesus is in the process of fulfilling. Jesus fulfilled the 3 Spring Feasts at His 1st coming along with Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended and began the Church. There are only the 3 feasts left. The first 4 were fulfilled in order, these will likely be fulfilled in order too. Trumpets is next...the first of the Fall Feasts. That could again explain why trumpets are mentioned in these verses, along with the day nor hour phrase.
7. This last one isn't really a point I would share in a discussion, but more for your own heart.... as I know even with all he reasons above many of us still wonder if it really is possible to know these things. You may not be 100% sure, but would you rather:
a) follow what you believe is God's will for you regarding sharing this sign, but potentially be called a fool if nothing happens; or...
b) be disobedient to what you believe is God's will for you, hide your knowledge of the Rev12 Sign under a lampstand, but potentially be ashamed before God at his throne if something major does?
1. I remember hearing a US Special Forces Veteran talk about decision making once. He said that most of the decisions they make are with about a 60-70% "certainty level". He said if they sat around waiting until they gathered enough information to be 90% or more certain about something they would never get anything done, at least not quick enough to ever matter.
So with that in mind, we can't expect to ever be 100% certain about anything prophetic, but if you have gathered the information, read the word, prayed about it and feel called to spread the message, then by all means act! If we wait around until we know we are 100% right, at that point we will be already gone and will have failed our mission to warn others and most importantly help some be saved. Urgency is a great motivator... We are in a war, and time is of the essence. So if you are above that 60-70% threshold, then it's time to act. Please spread the message to others so that perhaps they will wake up and tell exponentially more people. We need as many people in this battle as we can get.
2. A little while back we spotlighted an excellent article by Greg Lauer that shines much light on the very relevant subject of Imminence related to Rev 12 and this day nor hour discussion. It is kind of long but an excellent and essential read. Here is a link if you haven't seen it yet:
http://www.alittlestrength.com/articles/2017/1705-exit-sign.htm#cont
3. I recently watched a video by of my favorite teachers, Alan Horvath, in which he talked about the Day nor Hour verses and the Feast of Trumpets. Skip right to the 10:15 mark if you want to jump in right to this section....he talks about it from there all the way to the end of the video. Its a good quick summary and he has longer videos on the topic if you want more depth.
4. Last but not least, Scott Clarke did a great video on this subject too...but if you are reading this I am guessing you have already seen it. If not definitely check it out!!
Here is the link if you want to check that article out and see all the new comments:
https://rev12daily.blogspot.com/2017/06/its-not-astrology-omega-letter.html
So here is the comment that I wanted to pull out to discuss...
One of my main problems that I cannot seem to win on is the "cannot know the day or hour" this is such a hang up with the old timers, the young people don't dwell on this statement much. I pray that there is something catastrophic that wakes everyone up that is obvious to the body before rapture happens. (Thanks to ArtiPrinted for posting this great comment!)
My Response:
We all feel your pain on this one. Those words are so engrained in the minds of believers, it's almost like a automatic response whenever something specific like this is tied to a discussion about the rapture or even the end times in general. People don't dig deeper... its a major roadblock. Plus the doctrine of imminence is so accepted and promoted by the major prophecy guys that anything that comes against it is basically met with claims of heresy.To me there are several responses that are valid, I will put them in a rough order of weakest to strongest (although I do believe all are valid).
1. It says "Day nor Hour", not "Month nor Year". We can know the season....just not the exact timing.
2. That statement was given during the old covenant, prior to the gift of Revelation. Under the new covenant this knowledge has been potentially revealed.
3. If we can't know the timing why did Paul say "at the last trumpet" in 1 Cor 15:52?
4. If we can't know anything about timing, why then does Rev 3:3 strongly imply we can? Similarly with 1 Thes 5:4? These verses are ignored by most on the other side of the discussion...
5. Day nor hour is a specific Jewish idiom referring to the Feast of Trumpets. This could explain why the trump is referenced in rapture verses like 1 Thes 4:13 and 1 Cor 15:52. The last trump is the 100th blast, a long, loud, special one, blown during that feast. You can then explain further if you they want to know about the sighting of the new moon and how nobody knew when it would be seen so the could start the party...etc.
6. There are 7 Feasts of the Lord with seems that Jesus is in the process of fulfilling. Jesus fulfilled the 3 Spring Feasts at His 1st coming along with Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended and began the Church. There are only the 3 feasts left. The first 4 were fulfilled in order, these will likely be fulfilled in order too. Trumpets is next...the first of the Fall Feasts. That could again explain why trumpets are mentioned in these verses, along with the day nor hour phrase.
7. This last one isn't really a point I would share in a discussion, but more for your own heart.... as I know even with all he reasons above many of us still wonder if it really is possible to know these things. You may not be 100% sure, but would you rather:
a) follow what you believe is God's will for you regarding sharing this sign, but potentially be called a fool if nothing happens; or...
b) be disobedient to what you believe is God's will for you, hide your knowledge of the Rev12 Sign under a lampstand, but potentially be ashamed before God at his throne if something major does?
Personally, I believe that God has given us more than enough info to at the very least move forward warning others that The Day could be at hand. Thus I am deeply compelled to choose "option a" every time, no matter the risk of mocking. The stakes are simply to high to sit back and do nothing.
Ok, so that's what I wrote.... here are a few things I want to add to this thought:
So with that in mind, we can't expect to ever be 100% certain about anything prophetic, but if you have gathered the information, read the word, prayed about it and feel called to spread the message, then by all means act! If we wait around until we know we are 100% right, at that point we will be already gone and will have failed our mission to warn others and most importantly help some be saved. Urgency is a great motivator... We are in a war, and time is of the essence. So if you are above that 60-70% threshold, then it's time to act. Please spread the message to others so that perhaps they will wake up and tell exponentially more people. We need as many people in this battle as we can get.
2. A little while back we spotlighted an excellent article by Greg Lauer that shines much light on the very relevant subject of Imminence related to Rev 12 and this day nor hour discussion. It is kind of long but an excellent and essential read. Here is a link if you haven't seen it yet:
http://www.alittlestrength.com/articles/2017/1705-exit-sign.htm#cont
3. I recently watched a video by of my favorite teachers, Alan Horvath, in which he talked about the Day nor Hour verses and the Feast of Trumpets. Skip right to the 10:15 mark if you want to jump in right to this section....he talks about it from there all the way to the end of the video. Its a good quick summary and he has longer videos on the topic if you want more depth.
4. Last but not least, Scott Clarke did a great video on this subject too...but if you are reading this I am guessing you have already seen it. If not definitely check it out!!
Brilliant writing by - a little strength
ReplyDeleteAgreed! Very balanced and open... wish all teachers would read it before deciding that we are all crazy for taking this seriously.
DeleteI had also been taught immanency. Then one day it hit me: prophecy teachers always said that the letters to the churches in Revelation 12 were a picture of the entire church age, and we are now in the age of Laodicea. Well, if that's true then the rapture couldn't possibly happen until all those letters had been fulfilled, because if it had happened 500 years ago there would be unfulfilled letters. Once the church is raptured there isn't going to be any more church history.
ReplyDeleteThat was when I realized there had to be something seriously wrong with immanency. You can't have a picture of 2000 years of church history and the doctrine of immanency at the same time. The rapture always had to wait until after the Laodicea letter was fulfilled. After I understood that I started seeing all the other evidence - Rev 3:3 and Heb 10:25.
What really clenched it was the recent discovery (by Scott, maybe? I don't remember) that Revelation 1:1 reverses the "no one knows" verse. Jesus said that men, angels, and even He didn't know the day or hour. Then in Rev 1:1 we are told that God gave the revelation to Jesus, who sent it to John by an angel. So what was not known in Matthew 24 became known in Revelation.
The truth has been revealed, if people are willing to humbly believe it. Jesus did say that we were to be as children. Do you know what little children do? They believe what you tell them. If only God's children had a heart to believe what He has to tell us!
We have simultaneously been told that Immanency is true AND the Rapture could not happen until the Jews returned to the land, thus starting the Fig Tree Generation in Matt 24:32-34. Both can't be correct.
DeleteYes, we wrote about that Rev: 1:1 discovery here. I loved that too!
If I can add another piece of scripture that seems to question immanency, it is from Hosea 6 1-2:
Delete6 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
From what I have read this is in reference to the 2 days (1000 +1000 years) of rough diaspora, and the 3rd day being the 1000 year millennial reign. According to Ken Johnson the early church fathers taught that they expected the arrival of Jesus to come at around the 6000th year, as they viewed the 6 days and sabbatical rest as a type for human history, with the millennium as a picture of the sabbatical rest.
The dispensation teachers stick to the idea that the rapture could have happened at any time independent of the progression towards the gathering of the jews back to the land, and it's just circumstance that the rapture did not occur before this transpired. Hank Lindstrom was the first person that I heard talk about the generation from 1948, which would not pass away until the events are fulfilled, set the general ballpark of the 70-80 years for the lifespan of a man (psalm 90) to put the expectation of the tribulation week coming by or between 2018-2028.
Dispensation teachers instead put that generation as the tribulation generation, meaning that they seclude it to the 70th week generation only and that its a security on the tribulation jews that they will be a surviving remnant until the day of the Lord. This is debatable however since who would be concerned about a generation of people lasting 7 years if you already have the assurance of being protected in the wilderness from the dragon for 1260 days.
I would not be dogmatic on these proofs but if the revelation sign is legitimate, it would coincide with the 6000 year timeframe, while the further we move away from this window would again return to favoring unknown immanency. People do not like the generation argument because it was used as the 40 year justification for a 1988 rapture, which has served as proof that any attempt to ballpark the arrival of the apocalypse results in false expectations.
A healthy debate must be allowed to take place on these points as new information can be gleaned from world progress. I do not know if the dispensation teachers from the 20s-40s would have the same exegesis as they would given the push for peace occurring in the middle east right now, as well as the alliance of nations that compose gog magog of ezekiel 38-39 forming rapidly. Modern teachers will say headline exegesis is poor form, but to be honest, a spade is a spade regardless of inherited traditional outlooks.
I grew up in an amillenial presbyterian church so prophecy was all new to me. I wasn't bound to gain or lose any systematic theology knowledge from changing opinions or looking at counterarguments. I think prophecy is of such a nature that it has the ability to mask within itself multiple levels of understanding given the sentiment from which it is viewed as well as the passage of time as it has been viewed. To shut the door on the conversation for the sake of saying "the lord may not return for another 100 years"; it is also true that during the terminal generation that will be a false statement. It may look as if it's self serving to say the approach is at hand, and we are choosing to deceive ourselves out of desire for it to happen, but it is equal to say that bleating out the same dismissals for the sake of consistency leaves you in a state where no new knowledge is expected to be found in studying the scriptures.
(cont.) And since I've probably written too much for this post already, as a non sequitur, I had a question for you Brad. Why is it that in the revelation 12 sign that the dragon is called Red, and everyone just overlooks this description. It is the only time that the dragon is called red, that is within the passage of seeing the wonder, and it just so happens that the alleged planet x is seen only in the infrared spectrum. If it is an astronomical sign and it is literal stars we are looking at telling a story that is mirroring events on earth, then the addition of color gives credence to visually seeing something, instead of just referring backwards to joseph's dream as nomenclature for israel and the attempt by herod to destroy the manchild. I don't have an answer for this I was just curious why the dragon is called red here, but later in the passage when it is referring to satan as chasing the woman in the wilderness, the red is dropped.
DeleteIf it just means he is fierce, well I looked through "red" on biblegateway, and every time it is used it is something that is literally red, and never used as an adjective for temperament. I know the conspiracy of planet x is an afterthought to the alignment itself, but when interpreting the scripture as a real astronomical sign, it would be corroborating evidence in favor of the sign being seen in the heavens, and not just john "in heaven" seeing the wonder in abstract. Although I am not a fan of gill broussard, his material even calls the star 7x, as it is a system of multiple "heads" or planetesimals in orbit around the infra-red star, thus also echoing the description of the beast as having 7 heads.
I guess the luxury of being an armchair theologian leaves me open to play devils advocate in ways where I can weigh both outlooks evenly, where a wait and see mentality is a fair final verdict. To be honest if this didn't occur on Rosh Hashanah I would consider it far more as frivolous speculation. But in the end we have fallible man teaching a working best fit narrative of the immutable Word and it will only be after we're past the occurrence of the chronological prophecies that we will fully grasp what they meant, much in the same way the first coming prophecies were occluded during the time of their fulfillment.
- Steve
(edit above) I meant the sign occurring on Rosh Hashanah, not the rapture, as I do not think they are mutually exclusive. It can still be an accurate as an omen for this period of time without necessitating a fulfillment by harpazo on the day of the sign itself.
Delete@ Steve Banks dear brother, this "red" color of Planet X / Nibiru system possibly from iron oxide is indeed so much compelling that I doubt it not to be the natural celestial body being described in Rev12,3 and causing all 'birth pangs' cataclysm on earth today as well as any other following judgement disasters described in Revelation like the asteroid 'Wormwood' but as well in Isaiah 24,17-20; 34,4 regarding axe tilt, polar shift or the big (non solar!) eclipse from Amos 8,9 which will be global and not only last some minutes as usual. I believe the fact that this system of planets is already visible here and there (two sun effect) and definitely approaching is not just coincidental. Much blessings to you!
DeleteSteve, there is something out there in the infrared spectrum, and we have evidence of its existence,
Delete1) the flood, the moon has lots of destruction on it, the earth has been hit by something to cause the tilt,
2) the darkness in Egypt,
3) the sun stood still for Joshua and rocks fell from heaven,
4) when Jesus died there was darkness and earthquakes.
5) sodom and gomorrah had Sulfur rocks fall.
6) something smashed the planet in the asteroid belt.
7) there are sooooo many man made underground shelters.
8) revelation says there are again rocks/stars/mountains falling from heaven again.
Something IS out there and we have a hard time seeing it.
Steve, I am unable to answer your question in any meaningful way other then with conjecture. I see the same info that you do... I have seen theories that it is another Constellation moving through the sky and people have many good reasons to make that fit. I have also seen all the Planet X stuff and that seems very logical as well. Your point about the color red characteristic is a good one, it is an identifier.... a visual one at that! We know it represents Satan/the satanic world system of the end, but it would make all the sensei in the world if it had a visual fulfillment in the sky just like the great sign of Rev12:1-2 does.
DeleteAs far as the Red Dragon in Rev12:3-4 goes, to me I am approaching this with an "we will know it when we see it" type of attitude. The good news it that it does not devour the man child.... the church...me and you and any other true disciple and believer in Christ. So when and if it does arrive we will be able to recognize it and say, "Hey, that's it!" I have a feeling it will be obvious.... and if it is we should remember not to fear! If it is something huge and scary like meteors, or Nibriu, or whatever comes and looks very threatening....our calm attitude, faith in Christ and knowledge of this sign and how it plays out in the end knowing that we will be saved before it devours us will be a SHINING LIGHT to all the non-Christians out there. They will see us and say, "Ok, tell me what you know...why are you not freaking out!"
If you think about it, this red dragon, whatever it is, would be a great wakeup call to the world to get them to take this sign seriously. It also seems clear to me that it happens sometime before 9-23-17 since it is waiting in front of the woman waiting for the child to be born... So IF God allows this thing to show up, the purpose could be so as to wake up the world and help usher in a great harvest of souls prior to the rapture. Then, You, I, and everyone who has shared this message will be inundated with people with their ears wide open listening to what you have to say about this sign and more importantly, THE GOSPEL!
AMEN!!!!!!
DeleteDear Brad, thank you so much for gathering all this information! I do confess: even when I didn't yet know anything about the Jewish feast days (as there is serious lack in teaching too and I wasn't very interested in them at first because of that) I always hung onto point # 1) from simple logic. From our promises in Genesis 18,17; Exodus 33,11; Amos 3,7; John 15,15; James 1,5 etc. we may know that God would tell us everything in time if we ask Him and if He thinks it to be important for us to know ("thy will be done"). I always was very sure of that.
ReplyDeleteI always imagined a child with parents to go on a holiday trip asking for the destination. If the mother tells "oh, I dont know but Daddy knows!" wouldn't the child just ask the Father then? And would the father then NOT give a straight answer to the child? This is FAMILY, God is ABBA to us, not a distant person making some mystical mystery out of Himself!! I think many of the mockers and shouting 'heresy!' don't really have personal relationship with ABBA so they believe in some religious Godhood in a distance. If He REVEALS Himself to us, should there be anything mysterious about Him we could not ask for to be revealed? Especially if it is some so much important topic to the Father like it can be the Son Jesus Christ only?
So, before even knowing about the FoT Idiom this ban of thinking from Matth24,36 didnt make much sense to me. After all, as I found the truth about it now and some more information added to it that fits perfectly there's no more doubt, not even a 60-70% but a 100% security about it. Thanks to His grace, I found some true brethren like you that provided me with the exact right conclusions just in time. Isn't our God a wonderful one? HALLELUJAH
Oh I remember the days of "Are we there yet?" As a child, nothing reallly made sense, and I would even get mad on 12 hour trip, "are WE there yet?, hurumph"
DeleteI agree. I also remember my parents saying.... "Just take a nap and when you wake up we will be there!" It's sad, I think that's how most of the church is handling these things...
DeleteThere is one other thing that needs to be mentioned. I know we all want to see something huge and dramatic happens that wakes everyone up - but we are living in the age of faith. We believe in One we have not seen. Have you noticed that the Rev 12 sign happens on 9/23 and the Feast of Trumpets is on 9/21? That means the sign isn't going to occur until AFTER the most likely date for the rapture. By the time the sign gets here it will be too late.
ReplyDeleteI don't think we're going to see a dramatic wake-up call because we live in an age of faith, not sight. God wants people to believe in what He has said. Those who demand to see signs with their own eyes before they believe will find them - but they will find them in the Tribulation. Odds are good you'll even find Elijah and Moses there in Jerusalem, preaching the gospel. But you are vastly better off believing now in something you haven't seen.
The sad thing is that even though God will do all sorts of miracles during the Tribulation, some men will still not believe even though they HAVE seen (Rev 9:20, Rev 16:9). Even seeing the signs will not change some hearts.
If Rev 12 isn't enough to get people to believe, and if all the date parallels aren't enough, then nothing will ever be enough. Remember, some people did not believe even when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (John 11:46).
Yeah, exactly Jonathan! Very good pont! Remember what Jesus answered to the pharisees and scribes when they constantly asked Him for another sign so that they might believe! Matthew 12,39 + 16,4 He said this even TWICE and then LEFT them alone walking off! We should do the same.
DeleteI love you guys, such wonderful discussion!
DeleteFeast of Trumpets is a 2 day event. Yes it shows it happening on 9/21 but it doesn't start until the first sighting of the new moon by at least 2 witnesses. this means that even if it started 9/21 it's a two-day event which would bring us to 9/23. People keep forgetting this. So the 9/23 REV 12 sign will occur on FOT regardless.
DeleteWhere does the Bible say it lasts two days? I don't see that in Numbers 29.
DeleteIsaiah 66:7 says the birth is before the labor.... The alignment Daniel Matson found with the Pyramids happens on the 21st. Feast of Trumpets likely starts a day or so before 9-23..... So there are some good reasons to think that it could happen before. It would also reinforce the thief in the night scenario to those who aren't taking this seriously since even the mockers will be watching closely on 9-23, no doubt preparing their snarky articles...
DeleteJonathan agreed again, thank you brother! ;-)) In fact the whole biblical feast (= 1 sabbath-like day off work only, on 1st day of month = new moon) was at first by mens tradition prolongued 2 days for those traveling from far distance after the Babylonian exile and then additionally changed into mens tradition of Rosh Hashanah today. I found two interesting articles on this topic:
Delete1.) Crescent vs. astronomical New moon http://www.hope-of-israel.org/crescentmoon.html
2.) How Yom Teruah became Rosh Hashanah https://www.nehemiaswall.com/yom-teruah-day-shouting-became-rosh-hashanah
In any case, if we study the FoT customs described in Brad Hursts "Systematic Eschatology" which is given on this website in an older post (= the Hammer picture! page 36 f.) we might understand that the Jews will be late exactly up to the described (up to) 3,5 astronomical days the hidden moon is in conjunction until the sickle is to be witnessed corresponding to the gates of Jerusalem / temple open 3,5 days to the Israelites after teaching / entering the city. Prior to this, there was a nationwide announcing / wake up trumpeting during the month of Elul (= 30 days after Grand American eclipse in 2017, it fits perfectly!) so that nobody in Israel could miss the feast. It gets clearer to me every day that we will be already at least (!) 2 days gone when the 2 new moon witnesses (= possibly those prophesying 3,5 years in Jerusalem??) and the 144,000 then sealed tribulation Jews might realize what Rev12-sign would have meant to them! I think that's why we do observe 9/21 as rapture day on FoT now. But please, any correcting comment is very welcome, these are just my personal conclusions from what I've learned so far!
Me too, love this kind of fruitful discussion, so much pleasure to me knowing to meet you all soon in person with our LORD Jesus!
I thank God He lead me here!
ReplyDeleteI thank God He lead you here too! Thank you for reading. I love you dear sister in Christ!
Delete“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.” Matt. 24:36
ReplyDeleteWhat just dawned on me...when people use this verse to try and say no one knows the day or hour of the rapture, the truth is...this entire passage was talking about the *SECOND COMING*...not the rapture! At this point, the rapture still had not been revealed because it was given to the Apostle Paul. Jesus was a Jew talking to Jews. Jesus was preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom. The Jews were expecting him to return and set up his kingdom on earth. So to say that “no one knows the day or hour” of the rapture is so unbiblical to not even be relevant because it’s not even the same conversation!
Yep, it has been such a stumbling block! It seems that almost everyone trip and fall here and never get back up.
DeleteHowever feast of trumpets is call the day and hour that no one knows.
Amos 3:7
ReplyDeleteSurely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.