Koinonia House Addresses The Revelation 12 Sign

Chuck Missler's ministry, Koinonia House, put out a video today about the Revelation 12 Sign and September 23rd, 2017. They have been working on this video for quite some time and many of us have been looking forward to hearing what they have to say. From the portions I have seen, they are not on board with it.  But they are a great ministry, a ministry that has helped so many of us through the years.  So I encourage you to watch their information and compare it with the information on this site and others.  Does their argument convince you?  Do they make a solid case?  Do you think they are wrong, and why?  I can tell you one thing, if these guys can't debunk it, then nobody can.  The question is, did they succeed?? Please share your thoughts below...


  1. What a joke. That was a pathetic debunk attempt that avoided looking closely at the un-translated words, didn't examine the cross references people have found, and uses the attacking of others as a justification that the sign is a hox.

    Even the athiest, wolf in sheeps clothing, 9Nania, does a better debunk than this video!

    1. Good Morning everyone..... Make sure you catch up on all the comments below (there are many awesome ones) and then check out the very latest news in this link.
      New Post: Koinonia House Video Response is Huge

    2. I really did try to watch this video, really I did. I just can't get past all the filler. I guess my only comment can be, watch and see. I abhor those who think they are the only ones who know the truth. I also abhor double talk and those who think they know it all. Where we not warned about those who profess the truth and do not know it?

  2. WTWT, The best rebuttal to date.

  3. I have watched the entirety of the video. I do have respect for Koinonia House and I do not believe anything can be spoken of with certainty regarding these signs. Which is where I start my critique: There is an incredible amount of bias built in to their video and they were vicious, if not also self-contradictory at 50:12 in the video. They state that the people showing these signs (rightfully) do not stand behind their interpretation 100%, and YET, they also claim that it would be wrong to attempt to state any of this with certainty. Which is it Koinonia? Second, they dismiss God's writings and signs in the Sun, Moon and Stars (Luke 21:25) as astrology. They so completely dismiss any ability to ascertain information from the Sun, Moon and Stars, that they make it impossible for any one to use them to see signs. (They also dismiss the software used, because it can't account for some events in the past that the Bible describes, such as unexpected eclipses.) They give their arguments for why the child spoken of in Revelation 12 is Christ, and Christ alone. But in doing so, show their folly. I am happy to go in to the scriptures that convincingly prove that the child in Revelation 12 is not Christ alone. They are clearly not in agreement with the pre-Tribulation rapture of the Church. All of these biases help create a video and debunking attempt that should go down as one of the more hypocritical videos on this subject since it came in to discussion. Over and over they state some version of Proverbs 18:13, and based on what I have seen, are more guilty of this folly than any major Christian organization to date.

    I put forward this challenge: Koinonia House, if you are certain of your convictions in this matter, I challenge your organization to a point-by-point discussion and argument regarding this Sign in a public forum. We are called to watch. We are called to watch for the signs in the Sun, Moon and Stars. The pre-Tribulation rapture is the only acceptable interpretation of Biblical eschatology once all relevant verses of the Bible are taken in to account. The Rapture will birth the Christ-Church, with Christ as the Head, and believers as the Body. All of this being said, it is ultimately irrelevant what Koinonia House, or even I believe. Those of us who believe that we are mere months from the end will be proven right or wrong in a very short order of time. And none of this is salvation-dependent, so it should not divide the Church.

    1. Thanks for sharing Zach. Very well written my friend. I too wish one of the debunkers would ask one of us to a interview or friendly debate on the topic. I truly believe we would figuratively blow them away with the scriptural connections we have made and all the supporting evidence that has been discovered.

    2. Brad - it is just staggering, isn't it? The more I study it, the more pieces fall in to place. Yes, there is some evidence presented by some people or channels that is stretching or even breaking the Truth. Yes, there are some who are bringing in false teachings, and mixing it with the Truth. But the Biblical truth is simple: We are told this is a Sign in the Heavens (The Sun, Moon and Stars), and it happens only once in human history. I guess we'll see, won't we?

    3. Yes, excellent there, Zach. Thank you. I couldn't watch that video beyond three minutes. I felt sick when Matsen laid the "Ground Rules for Examination" and equated the supporters and researchers of the Rev12 sign with liars and propagandists, referencing the likes of Joseph Goebbels.

      Brad, why do you think there's so much hostility towards the sign? It has to be more than people just being tired and angry of past failed rapture dates. These people are shown to be sloppy in there own studies in trying to debunk it.

    4. Zach, to me the sign is very straight forward and explainable in 3 steps.... that is why it seems so weird that these smart guys can be sooooo off and go down such strange rabbit trails.
      1. Gen 1:14 say the sun moon and stars are made for signs
      2. Rev 12:1 says its a great sign in the sun moon and stars
      3. We have checked backwards and frontwards and no other time in history is there another alignment in the sun moon and stars which matches like this.

      Those 3 points should be enough to stop any debunker in their tracks and at the very least take notice and dig deeper. Instead they dismiss it out of hand come back with superficial arguments. Like I said above... weird.

    5. Zach, thank you Zach for watching it thru and for your well reasoned critique!

      Dave, that was my exact thought: the moment he insinuated those pointing to the alignment of Sep. 23 being consistent with Rev. 12:1 were spreading lies ala Goebbels I found that I could not watch any further because he already made plain his biases and that he would not be balanced in his treatment.

      Furthermore, though your question is directed at Brad I believe that I have seen Brad and those at Unsealed.org question the hostility toward the sign and point out that this hostility from the very people we would expect to be promoting it (i.e. the prophecy "experts") indicates a confirmation that this sign *is* legitimate. After all, who would have a vested interest in keeping us divided in factions and divisions if there *is* something to this sign? It seems to me the dragon would be that entity.

      And if there were nothing meaningful to this sign, wouldn't it be a great opportunity for the dragon to make the world aware that we are calling attention to the sign and ridicule us and use it as an example to show the world how "nutty" we Christians are? The silence in the media, and the downright emotional and uncharitable divisions amongst those who study prophecy is extremely telling to me.

      Grace to you and peace, YBIC,
      Alan R

      (Edit: and I see Brad has responded and all I can do is cheer his answer with a resounding "Yes, EXACTLY!" :)

    6. Alan, thank you and you are correct. The other false 'predictions' which the Rev 12 Sign gets lumped in with got so much coverage....positive coverage even. TV interviews, radio interviews, magazines, books on top of books. While this one is getting so little coverage...and most of it is negative if someone does address it. They leave parts out or use the astrology defense, or the lack of uniqueness defense, both easily refutable. So why? Someone doesn't want this message getting out apparently. Who could that be? To me the willful ignorance and outright hostility reveals the source of such madness. I love my brothers and sisters, but even a little child could see that this is relevant. At the very least be cautious... this is God's sign after all... he set things in motion, he determined the timing... So if they don't like it they should bring it up with HIM! : )

    7. If Chuck was younger he would be all excited but Ron has been listening to Joel Richardson and he is most likely one of the reasons Ron was influenced. Everyone be sure to leave a comment and put WTWT watched the whole thing on your comment. Sad day Chuck is a great teacher Ron is a poor student.

  4. WTWT

    Very disappointing, however I thought he was kind enough. I took notes and may write more later but have to make it fast right now.

    In point #1 he used the words "Zodiac" and "astrology" several times. So sad, as it was from Chuck Missler that I first learned of the Mazzaroth.

    Point #5 made NO SENSE to me. It was titled "Timeline Trouble", but imho he completely failed to make his point. Was it that he ONLY sees Revelation 12 as mid-Trib?

    I thought point #7 was pretty good. I have noticed what he pointed out - that they say they are not date setting in one place and time, and in another will basically say this sign means the rapture will be this fall.

    I wonder why he never addressed Jupiter's presence?

    I wonder if Mr. Matsen ran this by Dr. Missler before posting it...?

    Very disappointing.

    1. Chuck is pre-trib and did a video called "The virgin birth in space" and I posted a link to it in the comments along with many others telling Ron how wRONg he is!

    2. Good thoughts Alice. Ron was nice enough, but I agree with EACH of the issues you raised.

    3. Alice dear sister, after all his point #7 was (and is still) the only one that annoys me too with all my dear brethren Clarke, Breaker and many more. After having checked all evidence and scripture now enough in depth I must admit that this is the only point missing in most of these presentations. The willing of consequence is lacking indeed, which is then to be called a kind of unbelief in Gods calendar. But I have another idea on this: weren't it the WOMEN to be of some greater faith than the (male) disciples when Jesus showed Himself to them first after resurrection? I think there's another male/female reason to strongly believe if being convinced of this sign (with all other evidence converged)... Much love from Germany, MARANATHA! ;-)

  5. I think the implications of this sign are too big. This is a "push all the chips to the middle" type of sign....potentially. My opinion, these bigger ministries have too much on the line if nothing happens. I still liken this to the Pharisees/sadduccees during Jesus time....he was right there in front of them, fulfilling hundreds of prophecies, but he didn't fit into their idea of what/how the prophecy would be fulfilled. I think this sign is too obvious for the intellect of some of these ministries. Anyway, nothing may happen, but I honestly can't say I believe that anymore. I have been hedging my bets for lack of a better term. I don't know what, if anything, is going to happen, but I believe we're going to see something significant near the time of this this sign. Anyway, we'll see soon enough!

    1. Lance - That is an interesting reason why the large Christian Orgs might be turning their noses up at this: That it is a chips-all-in event. Good observation.

    2. Very peridoxical to me....seems like some want to remain in charge rather than to consider that we may be very close to Jesus' return. Why not say "what if"? Still reminds me of Jesus....even with all his miracles, he was totally rejected by the elite, so tragic.

    3. They don't even have to go all-in.... Even if they said what JD said would be fine and atleast cause people to search it out for themselves. A reasonable response by a ministry would be to just say something like this:

      "This so called Rev 12 Sign coming up has caused a lot of buzz. We feel there large chance it isn't correct. There is also a small chance it is. Either way, we see enough evidence there to suggest that you make yourself aware of it. Even if there is a chance it is right it is then clearly worthwhile to make yourself aware of the situation. Use an abundance of caution, but check out the information and ask God for wisdom."

      That's all they would have to say and save face either way.

  6. Pretty hard to maintain any sense of credibility when starting out with the Goebbels reference. Are you kidding me? Talk about shutting people down and offending folks unnecessarily. Generally speaking, when trying to persuade others to consider a different point of view, unnecessarily offending them at the very outset is usually not a particularly effective strategy. Communication 101. Helllloooo!!!???

    1. ...and even if you use such a Goebbels "quote" openly in a video you should verify before if it might be really his. Check out the link given. Otherwise, one could blame you of false propaganda yourself. BAM. ;-) I am German myself but as a Christian would not put citations even into my enemies mouth if they didn't use them or if I cannot really verify them as such. Its very comfortable and pithy to blame the Nazis of everything. Exodus 20:16

  7. Signs in the Heavens, By Dr. Chuck Missler
    I guess Ron disagrees with Chuck... Not a good sign for KHouse!

    1. I could swear I heard Joel Richardson talking with Billy Crone in the background!

  8. Replies
    1. for those of you wondering... WTWT is what Ron asked people to type in their comments so that he knows that they "Watched The Whole Thing". Clever guy! Nice guy actually... wish I could connect with him! Ron??? email me!

    2. If you email social@khouse.org one of their social media team guys may get back to you

  9. I love these guys, and am very familiar with their ministry. I honestly thought they would do a much better job of debunking than this. I'll leave the critiquing for others, but there is one thing that made me laugh. I discovered that I know a lot more about the Revelation 12 Sign than I thought I did! I've only been studying this for about ten months now, and even I could take him in an open debate!
    Brothers and sisters, please don't be angry or take personal offense at these attempts of debunking by others from the Body of Christ. Guard your heart, and use it as a learning tool, and to test what you've studied yourself.
    Like Zach Kiebler said, " It's not a salvation issue".

    1. Great reminder, Uncle Mike!

    2. Great word Mike. I felt no anger... only thankful the word is being spread. Surely God can use that video to get our brothers and sisters to seek out Scottie's videos and see for themselves. Thankful for all K-House does, but agree that I thought they would have done better. In a way, its encouraging if this is the best they've got!

  10. Sorry, a bit long. I like to write. :)
    Consider the fact that even Jesus’ heavenly signs, i.e., the Christ Stars were not understood by the whole nation of Israel but a few in the inner Priesthood that confirmed the Star of Christ to Herod, and only after they searched the Scriptures. The Leaders and Teachers of Israel ‘missed it’. It took foreigners, those ‘outside’ the main ‘church body’…as in the Magi from Persia to recognize, discern and in turn follow by faith the ‘Star’ as being the sign of Christ’s birth. Perhaps to the people of Israel and its guarded King and Priestly class, such ‘researchers’ into the ‘Sign’ of the Sun, Moon and Stars might have appeared to be on the fringe, ‘astrologers’, non-scriptural, non-scholastic and unconventional. However the Magi’s diligence to seek Christ in all things and glorify Him is forever recorded as part of the example of man of faith acting on such ‘Signs’ in the Heaven that led to a face-to-face encounter and worship of the King of the Universe.

    Consider that even when Jesus was amongst His people, in the flesh that one could touch and speak to…likewise the nation of Israel did not recognize Him, nor the crowds and even some of the Disciples had doubts at the beginning. Some said ‘this about Jesus’, others ‘said that’, etc. Thus the question posed by Jesus to Peter, etc.

    The point is that then, of who Jesus was in that very moment as to now with the Revelation 12 Sign phenomenon, there was and is real and heated contention. Never mind that Jesus’ birth and death both came with a ‘Sign’ and profound ones at that. Yet today, no such topic is dividing the Church Body -full blown now as the Revelation 12 Sign phenomenon. It has become more contentious than the Tetrad Blood Moons, the Shemitah, Camping’s failed Rapture predictions and so on.

    One cannot help but compare the issues in these Last Days leading up to the Sign. There is much debate as there should be with the Church Body and one can appreciate a fair and balance critique. So far, such that have attempted to critique the Revelation 12 phenomenon have erred in positioning themselves on the opposing viewpoint. That is understandable as some are cautious based on the faulty theology some are ascribing to it… It is distracting from the true essence of the Sign but in the same vein, such totally discount any possible prophetic merits of the Sign.

    The issue is with the interpreters, not the Sign itself. However, the Sign is being dismissed totally because of the interpreters; not right, nor fair in an honest debate and discourse. The contention over Jesus occurred right down to His death, burial and even after His resurrection, right down to this present day. Is it any wonder why a similar ‘Sign’ could have the same effect? Does that level of contention perhaps then give the Sign some measure of added credibility? -Luis Vega

    1. Excellent points Luis Vega! Thank you!

    2. Thank you Luis. Well written as always. Awesome points, especially like your conclusion! What a great parallel to draw.

    3. WOW, Luis Vega! Verrrrrry good! You and Scottie should go on camera together! God really shines His light through your viewpoint!

    4. Here is that rod of iron, not only Yeshua.
      25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

      26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

      27 And he shall rule them with a++++ rod of iron;++++ as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

      28 And I will give him the morning star.

      29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    5. Lu wrote:

      "Does that level of contention perhaps then give the Sign some measure of added credibility?"

      ¡Eso es! Bingo. To me, this is the key takeaway from all the rabid debunking of the REV12 sign. There are people who have completely taken leave of their senses in their attempts to debunk, discredit, disparage, defame, and destroy a thunderingly obvious sign in the heavens and all those who are willing to simply observe, study, and gaze in awe at what God is revealing to us.

      Remember that Satan knew the REV12 sign was coming long before Lu first saw it, and carefully prepared a sea of red herrings, false leads, and dingbat deceptions that would successfully prepare the way for the vicious attacks we are seeing today. And the bulk of the organized Church has walked into it with eyes wide shut.

      Color me surprised.

      In a sense, I can't blame many of the debunkers for their misguided seal. Satan has carefully planted a sea of red herrings and fal

    6. Oops, sorry. Ignore that last sentence fragment. =:)

  11. Video of Dr. Chuck Missler actually saying the "male child" could be the Church, and Rev12:5 could be the Rapture

    1. Great reminder links James O!! I to wonder if Chuck really knows about this. Hard to see him agreeing.

    2. Fantastic find James! It is starting to feel like the Koinonia organization has decided to come out against this, regardless of the contradictions to their own beliefs???


    3. Video of Dr. Chuck Missler talking about the "Zodiac" or "Mazzoroth"

    4. WTWT: Is 23 September 2017 the fulfillment of the Revelation 12 prophecy? YES!! What does it all mean and what will happen, not sure, but am definitely watching.
      James O also put a link for An article written by Chuck Missler, Signs in the heavens, http://www.khouse.org/articles/2014/1193/ ~ great article, thank you James O.
      Appears that Chuck Missler is unaware of the recent findings on Revelation 12, to bad, would love to hear what he thinks. In CM's Chuck Missler Revelation Session 11, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxhCe6Q2uv8 , He goes through Daniel chapter 9 and gives great insight what Daniel experiences and did when he figured the 70 years of captivity was coming to an end. Perhaps best advice yet for what should we be doing at such a time as this. (Can be viewed here as well, http://narrowroaddepot.forumotion.com/t673p25-rev-12-sign-what-should-i-be-doing-lord )
      Thank you Brad for Revelation 12 Daily!

    5. WTHT.....Jesus came and ascended.... why would He come again and be caught up fleeing the dragon? He defeated Satan at the Cross! We the Church are the body! Another thing, this sign is not the only thing we should be looking at.... people see the state of the world right now... WW3 is looming, the famines, earthquakes, fires, volcanoes, and general state of the world also comes into play, madmen ruling the world, refugee crisis, lawlessness.....as in the days of Noah etc. There are so many important dates that coincide with this year of the Rev 12 sign... 120, 100, 70, 50, 40. If you only look at the Rev 12 sign then what you say might have some merit, but this is not the only thing that make this year a significant one.... anyway Jesus asked us to watch, pray that we will be found worthy to escape and that is what we are doing... also many are called, few are chosen. The Church is slumbering...remember 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins.

    6. Yes... he did contradict himself pretty badly on Point #6. Harpazo / Rapture means a sudden snatching... just like a bird of prey... a Raptor!

  12. I remember first getting my Missler briefing packages over 25 years ago at a Hal Lindsey conference. Missler helped launch my studies to a different level at Bible College. It is a sad day for Khouse. The resistance to the Revelation 12 Sign does seem like what Luis Vega so eloquently said. It is sadly not surprising and should be expected.

    1. I've only just started listening to Chuck Missler. But I've been a fan of Hal Lindsey for 20 years. I didn't know much about Chuck until last year. Crazy! I LOVE CHUCK!

  13. WTWT

    I already knew that different renderings of Leo use different numbers of stars. However, the most widely accepted rendering uses the 9 stars that we all know by now. Having said that, Regulus is a multiple star system composed of four stars that are organized into two pairs AND it’s present in all the renderings. Maybe we should just call the whole thing off? Personally, Regulus with multiple stars doesn’t bother me and I still think of it as one star - so I’ll keep going. I’m not even sure we know what stars they used for Leo 2000 years ago but they did use the same constellations that we use today. They also called the planets ‘wandering stars’ back then, so we should probably give John some grace on that. I think it would be asking too much to require him to correctly call them planets. This guy made the point that stars are stars and not planets. But I would point out that the stars are fixed from our perspective. They don’t change their positions like the planets so this prophecy would never be fulfilled.

    The real question for me is whether or not this alignment is what John was describing in Revelation 12. It either is or it isn’t. Given some of the problems that I just touched on, I have to ask if this is an actual sign in the heavens or just another allegory, because Revelation is full of allegories. I saw a video arguing that it’s an actual sign with the actual sun and the actual moon, etc., and I think they made a valid argument. (Unfortunately, I can’t remember the exact video.) So, if we’re talking about the actual sun then we’re also confined to the 12 constellations that it traverses. Only one of these is a woman, Virgo, and only one constellation is above her head, Leo, with it’s nine stars including Regulus. Three wandering stars in Leo makes 12 stars above her head. Jupiter is in her midsection for nine months due to retrograde motion. The moon is at her feet. This is all starting to sound familiar AND it was written down 2000 years ago.

    We will know soon enough what happens in September. But, personally, I can’t just dismiss this alignment as astrology and ‘bandwagon mentality’ and whatever else this guy was arguing.

    1. Loved this JR. Thank you. FYI, When you look at Regulus, even with optics, it still looks like 1 star. Also, Revelation 12 does not contain allegorical words such as "like" which is so common in Revelation. Therefor a plain reading of Rev 12:1-2 which talks about the of Sun, Moon, and stars is just that.... those the sun moon and stars! The woman is the constellation up there among those objects! It is fairly straightforward actually.

  14. I have only known about the Rev 12 sign for a month or so. And I watched this video. I truly do not know what to believe. The one thing for me that casts doubt that he spoke of, is that an eclipse, or darkening of the sun has to happen for all of this to make sense. Is that true? That part really confuses me. Is this all based on something like an asteroid blocking the sun on September 23rd, and if that does not happen then it was all insignificant after all?

    1. The main and plain thing is that the Rev 12 sign is a marker in time, no eclipse needed but we will have one across the USA in 21 days if you didn't know already.

    2. Hi Sheryl,
      Thank you so much for commenting! I am so happy you are here checking all this out. To answer your question, I don't think an eclipse has to happen for the sign to make sense. Think about it... It could be cloudy in places. Does that mean the sign didn't happen if it was too cloudy to see it? Besides, the sign can be seen partially at sunrise and the remainder at sun set. Additionally, the sign can be seen via technology right now. We can study it right now due to this amazing software. Does the fact that we needed the Hubble Telescope to learn about galaxies somehow make our discoveries invalid? That uses technology, that uses software. Daniel 12:4 says knowledge will increase, I think that is fulfilled by both an increase in technology, but also increased access to Biblical knowledge. The Rev 12 Sign brings both of those aspects together. Hope this helps! To me, it takes much more faith to think that this is somehow some elaborate coincidence than to believe that this is actually it, a sign in the sky, right where Gen 1:14 says it will be. Thanks again for your question. : )

      One last thing. Amos 8:9 does actually say that the sun will go dark at noon at some point. Not sure if this applies to this sign, but it is worth being aware of! Ron never mentioned this verse. : ) Feel free to ask any more questions! GOD BLESS YOU!!

    3. If the same kind of visit from an object in outer space comes between the earth and the sun, that would fulfill Amos 8:9, it could be, doesn't have to be the same object that created 3 hours of darkness when Jesus died!

      Would NASA Tell the public? No
      Does NASA keep hinting that there is something out there we cannot see? Yes
      Would the Government tell the public? No
      Does it look like the people in the Know are preparing for something? Yes
      Does it look like Russia knows something, they can put all of Moscow underground? Yes
      Why are they building bunkers that will allow for them to stay underground for 200 years?
      Are movies/shows are desensitizing people to an apocalyptic event? Yes
      Are movies/shows showing that super humans are possible? Yes
      Do they deny giants, but put them in movies? Yes
      Does Jack and the Bean stalk sounds like it came out of the book of Enoch? Yes
      Do the elites want population reduction? Yes

    4. Exactly Matthew M check this out https://youtu.be/y28wCHEzafY

    5. Interesting, Ed Dames, basically describes Revelation! He said it all starts when everyone looks up and there is an atmospheric disturbance, something happens and everyone goes home. Then he describes the sun getting hotter just like in the O.T. when it says 7 times hotter. He says southern hemisphere gets hit the harder then the northern. He also says his information is outside of time, this guy is scary.

    6. I started a thread about the sun at http://unsealed.boards.net/thread/475/signs-sun?page=3&scrollTo=5645 when watchmanjim asked me to and daily update it as the flaring side of the sun turns toward the earth. As long as we have electricity and internet I will continue until I go back to school later this month. God bless

  15. One of the biggest errors I noticed as well was in his reference to the man child who will rule with a rod of iron, HE DID NOT EVEN MENTION REVELATION 2:26!!!!!!!!!! WHICH CLEARLY SHOWS JESUS GIVING THE ROD OF IRON TO THE CHURCH!!!!!!!!! He only listed scriptures in reference to Jesus himself. HUGE ERROR!!!!! NOT ASTROLOGY, JOB 9:9 even stating God naming the BEAR, and ORION!! And I had no idea what he was talking about with three hours of darkness that day, Scott Clarke never said on the 23rd there would be three hours of darkness, its not scriptural. Clarke only suggested Nibiru as a possible red dragon. Not a good debunking!

    1. That is the exact thing I shared on their Facebook page! How do you in good conscience share all those other verses, but skip over the one verse on the subject that makes the exact point you are trying to debunk? How can you skip that, how can you withhold that from your viewers. That is not right. Also agree with your point about Job 9:9.... Job 38:32-33, and Amos 5:8 are also good and somehow absent from the discussion...as was Gen 1:14! Additionally, the 3 hours of darkness is just a theory, but I find it interested that in Amos again, an event fitting the bill is described. See Amos 8:9. Wouldn't that be something... that would make it a GREAT SIGN indeed to quote Dan Matson! : )

    2. Brad I just wanted to tell you what an impressive job you have done to prove the word of God!

  16. Hugely surprised as Chuck used to discuss the Mazzaroth, male child being the church, magi from Daniels say following the star etc etc. methinks khouse has been hijacked. Might pop down the road to Reporoa and chat to Chuck about it, he is a good man.

    1. Yes, see video links in the comments above showing Chuck addressing this!

  17. Can anyone explain or point me to a good resource that explains the dragon of Revelation 12 in connection to the 9/23 sign? That's been the only real hangup for me. I believe if we have such a thorough explanation of the woman and the child that we should have a similarly applied standard for the dragon, since it's also described as sign in heaven (7 heads, 10 horns, etc, shouldn't there also be heavenly bodies here we can point to?). Otherwise the sign is very convincing to me and I tend to believe 9/23 will be the fulfillment despite this hangup. Thanks for any help here, I really appreciate the humble yet direct approach I consistently see from the commenters here. God bless! -Justin H

    1. Hi Justin

      Scott Clarke did a YouTube clip on the dragons tail. I personally think there is too much conjecture however to be looking for a dragon heavenly sign as the rev 12 sign is a heavenly sign with earthly implications. In this sense we don't need the constellations to do anything further to prove the sign in the heavens aside from the 23 sept event, we need to turn our focus to what satan is going to attempt to do to Israel and believers here on earth. Some of the discussions on YouTube and unsealed etc cover this off, but unfortunately not enough as far as I am concerned. Sorry am on cellphone so can't write much now afraid aside from th ended to note that satan brings a third of the stars (his fallen angels) to earth in anticipation of the impending birth.


    2. This is just speculation, but some people think the dragon's sign in the heavens is already possible to see, but is being censored by Google.

      If you are interested, go to Google sky, look at Virgo, then switch to the infrared spectrum. The black box you will see has something behind it very crazy looking, and its been slightly moving outside the censored boxes range over time. It's only viewable using infrared. It's positioning is right in front of where Jupiter is heading.

    3. Here is an interesting video about it. He gets into what I was referencing more towards the end.


    4. Justin,
      I agree with you and in looking around for some information I thought Daniel Matson did a great job explaining the Draco constellation.
      I worry that everyone is so focused on one portion of the scripture/sign that the possible explanantion of the rest of the chapter gets neglected. I think because of the Pre-Trib rapture doctrine the rest of the chapter (Revelation 12) tends to get over looked.
      The Draco meteor shower this year will peak on October 8th which wil be during the Feast of Tabernacles.
      There will also be a more intense meteor shower from October to Novemeber from the Orion constellation at this time.
      There is going to be a lot going on in the heavens that is for sure and I suspect there will be much going on on the Earth as well.
      Gill Broussard also has done some excellent research on Planet 7x as he calls it that ties into all of this stuff too. Here is his most recent interview.

      I don't believe in every single thing any man/woman says but all of the research and puzzle pieces do point to very exciting times for those of us who are In Christ. Glory to God! Above all, we must sure we are continuing to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength regardless of how any of this plays out. If we dont have a heart to heart realtionship with the Father, Jesus and are not filled with the Holy Spirit then we have nothing no matter how much we study and speculate. I hope this was helpful and if anyone one else has connected some of these dots this way I would love to know more. God bless!

    5. Daniel, over at informedchristians YouTube page, has done a fine job unpacking the dragon from an astronomical perspective and I strongly encourage you to go to his channel and work through the vides entitled Dragon Tail Time and A Third of the Stars. You will see this unpacked in terms of Draco, the Dragon Constellation, the agricultural markers outlined in Song of Solomon happening NOW and much more. Great way to spend this Saturday!

    6. Thanks for addressing this guys. Pinning the tail on this dragon sign is much less clear. I have a hunch we will know it when we see it. But I have seen many convincing theories ranging from the Google Sky/ Nasa cover-up, to specific constellation patterns. We shall see, but Frank is right, unless we are in a right relationship with Jesus Christ none of this speculation should matter.

    7. Don't forget about the near asteroid on Oct 12th, and they still don't know how close or far it will miss us.


    8. Thanks for the information! I just saw that Johnny Baptist at Tribulation Now Radio has recently posted an article on his site about Nibiru/September 23rd connection too.

      Brad - Maybe it would be worth while to start a "Sign of the Dragon" page or something for people to compile some of this stuff? Just a suggestion. God bless!

    9. Thanks everyone, I appreciate your thoughtful responses and candor as I'm starting to look through the links you provided. It's absolutely true that what really matters is being in right relationship with Jesus through whom alone we receive salvation and life abundantly (John 14:6, 10:10, Romans 10:9). If you're reading this please say a quick prayer for me. I feel like in recent months I've been accumulating all this incredible knowledge in discerning the times in which we live and just how close we are to Christ's return (much of it in relation to the Rev 12 sign and solar eclipse, etc). I KNOW there's no way this knowledge is just for my benefit like I'm just supposed to just sit on it and not share it. Please pray that I will discern the right way and timing in which to disseminate all this information to others, whether on social media or at my church or to friends, family, etc. I imagine a lot of you are in the same boat as well. Thanks and God bless! -Justin H

    10. Amen Brother. We are all in this together. I'm like you about sharing. I have tried and been rejected with this stuff and some other information that I was not 100% sure of what will happen. And in some cases I shared something and ended up being 100% wrong! I don't mind eating humble pie but I don't want to be a stumbling block to someone or get in the way of how the Lord is working in their life by jumping the gun. Even if I share something like this I always make it about the gospel, about Jesus, about the 1st commandment. Everything else is peripheral stuff that may or may not help to share with someone. When we learn to wait on the Lord and follow His lead and the leading of the Holy Spirit everything will happen just as He wants it. His will is going to be done so it is comforting to know we can relax or not worry so much about wether or not we are doing what we are supposed to do. Just draw close to Him and wait patiently always being ready for when He will use you. I have seen in my walk that whenever something came up that God wanted me to do He always prepared me perfectly for it and we see the same through out scripture. And the beauty part is that when your are led by the Holy Spirit, He keeps you from messing it up! LOL! Thank you Jesus! I will be praying for you brother!

      Psalm 27:14 NKJV
      Wait on the Lord;
      Be of good courage,
      And He shall strengthen your heart;
      Wait, I say, on the Lord!

    11. Frank that was an very edifying word, thank you for your encouragement and sensitivity to the Holy Spirit brother! I appreciate your prayers and I'm praying for you and everyone else on here as well! -Justin H

    12. Justin H I was going to make videos starting last year on the Revelation 12 sign but found so many good videos on the subject that I made a list of links and started posting them all over the internet, sometimes I get hate messages back but if one more soul makes it into heaven it is worth it. Below I will post my links and if anyone wants to copy and share they are welcome to. God bless

      53 days until September 23rd 2017 https://youtu.be/0jYgoX4NL7g
      (Click Read more) 52 if you use UTC time do you know what day and hour it really is?
      I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
      https://youtu.be/Jyfv3jQmJ5Q Eclipse August 21st 2017 WARNING OCCULT IMAGES
      https://youtu.be/0QhRZtMBVhE Gospel on video
      https://youtu.be/_cS50l31lyI Dr. Heiser Hebrew in pictures
      https://youtu.be/nmNqYxGgTvw The Watchman June 29th 2017
      https://youtu.be/Kaf4O8flpr4 God’s Roadmap newest
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSpUIIrFMqs The Unleashing
      https://youtu.be/WKP_VoMVGaE Eden to Armagedden
      https://youtu.be/sfqKTrjeWL8?t=35m50s Gary Wayne
      https://youtu.be/1Inh2ts9J2Q Kiss the Son
      https://youtu.be/Tldkr05ljxg Unsealed
      https://youtu.be/RZReEpOFRQE 9/23/2017 events
      https://youtu.be/pY3UWwfBdmo Genesis to Joshua
      http://watchfortheday.org/sundownatnoon.html Turn off the sun
      https://youtu.be/PzXifxP_IHM?t=6m26s What will it look like on September 24th on earth?
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEzxw9rzyPA Parable of the Vineyard on Mark Wells page
      https://youtu.be/7kQAZ2dYzNA Ethereum crypto currency
      https://youtu.be/6JnxKRM-WJA Son of Man is coming
      https://youtu.be/vlcVUbCqsMw Why it is time for the RESET
      https://youtu.be/fJsaM65mmfI Heiser explains Deut 32
      https://youtu.be/Er507MsGp0M Tim Alberino on the book of Enoch
      https://youtu.be/5wbdjo7xnUg Whole book of Enoch with sub-titles
      http://www.unsealed.org/2017/05/the-five-part-gospel.html Revelation 12 Forum
      This video also shows pretty much everything I think people need to know:
      https://youtu.be/4NtYB1geYQk Dr. Michael Heiser What is the true Gospel?
      https://youtu.be/Lq26nzY24Ho Illuminati Infiltration of Christianity
      https://youtu.be/LigYkDgyY90 Details dragons tail
      https://youtu.be/PzrPwyCwnfM Pole Shift second sun?
      http://878ten.com/ Rt. hand or forehead?
      https://youtu.be/ciNJ4efgEw4 Monitoring from space?
      https://youtu.be/-pdEmwk2iGo How Artificial Intelligence learns Anthony Patch
      https://youtu.be/N4XncQig_LY What is the Temple of the Holy Spirit?
      https://youtu.be/jSv2Zqc41TY From Oregon firecharger
      https://youtu.be/cfXZm9Y1gYA Pastor who understands scripture
      https://youtu.be/ji8iTFUg1yk Wake Up message
      https://youtu.be/p6th2png8WU Jacob Israel
      https://youtu.be/0Qt0TlkDxQI Ephraim and Manasseh
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wd5eYVMHWM history of the bible
      https://youtu.be/6X_xB1JJ_Es 1776 Freemasons launch CFR
      https://youtu.be/zzvNymMn93c RFID chip intro
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7AZPlHvZHY Signs of the end
      Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God does nothing, unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.
      https://youtu.be/HSuKB9dEoGk?t=2h27m Michael Heiser trans-humanism (September 23rd 2017 the Alien Agenda will be unleashed and the fallen angels will arrive to "Save Humanity" ) Don't believe me? Just watch
      https://youtu.be/lquxviaQOsA Anthony Patch CERN Sept 23rd burning man
      https://youtu.be/6o942ZKpifY CERN Christian Truther
      https://youtu.be/P1VWw15V2G8 Tim Alberino

    13. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kklrBBsI8w Trump orb

      https://youtu.be/BDD0J1ejEcg Face Like the Sun crisperCas9
      https://youtu.be/f3x7hPWKB2c 2018 All known planets on the right side of the sun
      https://youtu.be/1q1Irjx7Ujs Chris Putnam Tom Horn predict black pope
      https://youtu.be/QGC32goRiV4 Steve Quayle Tom Horn Vatican deception coming
      http://biblehub.com/revelation/12-1.htm Cross ref Revelation 12

      September 23rd 2017 happens to be the date written in God's stars when Michael will evict the fallen and bound angels and launch them to the Earth. Revelation 12 :1-12 The vatican will introduce them as your new spiritual leaders and require that you worship them. This will happen 53 days from today so if you wait until September 24th 2017 to see if I am right you may be having a bad day about then. Good luck if you believe in luck.

      https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Esdras+2&version=CEB 2nd Esdras lost book
      This whole chess match was caused by Satan and 1/3 of the fallen angels seeking dominion only possible with DNA he could have thrones, powers, control principalities but never have dominion without Human DNA

      "And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
      -Joel 2: 30-32a
      https://youtu.be/G3304fy9mhs Challenge

      It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter.
      The Day of the Lord
      1Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. 2For you are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.…Thy God Reigns

      Here is the rest too many words for one post

    14. I'm in total agreement with you both (and feel the same). This is both a blessing and somewhat of a burden, but I'm just trying to be available and go where I'm led.

  18. WTWT to be fully able to criticise and left a comment on YouTube: "male child" with "rod of iron" lacking Revelation 2:26-27 / 'harpazo' (Rev12:5) and 'epairo' (Acts 1:9) are not the same words nor same meaning / worldwide convergence of 'birth pangs' and Israel news poorly explained and hardly noticed / Feast days (esp. FoT 1 Corinthians 15:52 for exact moment of rapture) not explained at all in prophetic pattern... Just to name the biggest failures of this piece of video which already begins with the pathetic "astrology" argument. Just read the comment section on YouTube, there's more people like me who are to be called "fools" who "isolate" themselves according to Ron. I just ask myself why they are in such great numbers then (over 700 comments)? LOL!

    1. wRONg Matsen is getting an ear full from those who have "studied to show themselves approved" I will keep commenting until wRONg Matsen gets the message and makes a new video without having Joel Richardson telling him what to believe. God bless

  19. PS: What really astonished me is people making a great deal out of the US American eclipse on 8/21/17 even with a special repentance purposes website teshuvah2017 but if God describes Rev12-sign by using a whole chapter in the bible there's just "debunk junk" like this? Hmmmm... ;-)

    1. Excellent point, they are more than willing to discuss the Eclipse, which biblical connection is must less sure.... than the other sign in the sky occurring 3 days later which gets SPECFIC attention in the Bible itself. Great point!

  20. I haven't had a chance yet to watch the video, but I get a pretty good sense of what it's about. Here's a video clip of Chuck Missler speaking on a possible interpretation of Revelation 12:5. Either Chuck has forgotten he held this view, or he has changed his mind! The video should start at the 34:52 min mark. I think everyone here should find this interesting!


    1. Chuck is on the sidelines because of his failing health and age, if he was 10 years younger he would set wRONg Matsen in his place and send Joel Richardson packing!

  21. Don't be discouraged by any of this. Organized ministries and their staff depend on attendance and contributions to fund their infrastructure and programs. Very few will take a position they perceive as risky. And unfortunately we've all seen great ministers get hung up on a discovery or observation that was not their own. I like the comment about "all the chips to the middle of the table" and agree that this sign fits that description. Stay the course, continue to share with those you care about and very soon we will see for ourselves what comes to pass in September. Thank you all for your efforts and willingness to discuss all sides.

    1. Thanks for sharing... great points. Our hope is in The Word... not in the sign itself. Psalm 119:114
      Stay encouraged friends.

  22. WTWT- In reading the comments, you all saw what I saw as a failed attempt to debunk. Chuck must be in very poor health to allow these incomplete arguments to pass as in-depth exegesis under his ministry's banner. The longer I listen to Steve at Heavenly Sign, the more I understand that there are NO coincidences with the Almighty. He even tried to cast doubt on the software and technology that we have available to us today; as well as the constellations and their makeup. He tried to sound scholarly and reasonable, but his arguments were incomplete as far as I was concerned. When he contradicted himself about the use of the word harpatzo and the ascension of Jesus, I was convinced he was disingenuous. Our faith in God's word as we see it come to pass in the creation, must be a delight to our Father as we eagerly await His son from heaven. Maranatha

  23. A dear sister has written an excellent response on her blog...


    1. Thanks Dave...good article AND another resource! Bonus!

  24. https://youtu.be/CCB6u5XUmQI Joel Richardson the new face of K-House Chuck Missler is still a hero of mine but this wolf has crept into the henhouse

    1. Dear Gary I do not recognize Joel Richardson as my brother in Christ but as some self-appointed prophet who wants to make money out of it. Acts 8:9 following... MARANATHA! Stay blessed brother! :)

    2. Same here but I must say he blends in well in his sheep suit though he speaks like a wolf.

  25. Hello all,

    I am a first time poster on this site. I too am awaiting the time discussed here to see what event will transpire around or after this day.

    I have a few theories (not private interpretations) which I'm sure some of you have thought of also. I also enjoyed Daniel Matson's information regarding the Draco constellation. I'm not sure we can rule out the involvement of the Draconids meteor shower (Oct 7-8)... On that note the Leonids meteor shower is November 17th. There is also some (possibly fake and) not nearly as important news circulating that the Perseids meteor shower will be the brightest ever in recorded history, able to be viewed even in the day. (Again, I've also come across some saying that's fake info).

    I'm sure you are aware that October 13th is the 100 year anniversary of the Fatima 'Miracle of the Sun' apparition. I only bring this up because the sun apparently behaved in a way never seen before, turning into a reddish solar disk and also a twirling and gyrating pinwheel. Similar to Draconids I'm not sure we can rule out the possibility that the sun will behave in a way never seen before, whether turning reddish at an unexpected time or unleashing some sort of phenomenon spoken of all over the internet in terms of a solar kill shot or EMP event. (Perhaps during or afterward becoming 7x hotter or brighter)

    I felt this was worth mentioning since the great red dragon apparently has seven heads and ten horns, the seven heads have Blasphemous names (the planets bear the names of pagan gods such as Jupiter, etc)...

    If we factor in the sun behaving in an unexplained manner 100 years before, October 13th 2017 could be a valid watch day, if only for further deception or an astounding sky-related event.

    When we consider as I'm sure you have the possibility of the sun or moon behaving in an unexpected way or turning red at an unexpected time, they could be classified as the Great Red Dragon.

    To weigh in on the potential unexpected eclipse possibility, I will simply say that certain groups expect a 3-hour eclipse from noon to 3p on a given day, Jerusalem time. Yes, this would surely make it a Great Sign and allow it to be viewed in full during the day.

    If there is something approaching in order to block out the sun on a given day, perhaps we could get a peek at it during the solar eclipse of August 21st. If so, it might constitute a 33-day (to Sept 23) and/or 40-day (to Atonement) warning.

    See this article on why the sun may very well be the celestial Great Red Dragon:


    To answer another query bluntly, the planets are only labelled such by astronomers et al to confuse us and by translation. They are actually "wandering stars", a 'translation' of (I believe) the Greek "planeta". So, they are still stars, part of the heavenly signs moving through the field of static stars and other objects placed there for signs and seasons.

    Anyhow, some of the dates worth watching for significant events are just too perfect to brush off.


    1. Dear friend please check out this short WSO video clip to get an impression of what kind of celestial sign / event the "dragon" might be fully visible soon. In my opinion this cannot be some fixed Draco constellation or some regular annual meteor shower as it MUST be something of a planet(ary system) = wandering star that occurs 'all of a sudden' just AFTER the church has been raptured. But: this "thing" is currently influencing heavy weather anomalies on earth, causing sunflares / CMEs and EMPs and heating up earth magnetic core as well (= birth pangs!). MARANATHA stay blessed!

    2. Thank you. I'm well aware of those types of videos and I'm also very sorry to tell you that 99.9 percent of them are lens flares or otherwise falsely attributed as being an lobject' of importance. Like some, I've done the necessary research regarding the supposed incoming object or planetary system and I unfortunately discovered that even the supporters of the theory are knowingly supplying false information, some of which is channeled from unseen forces (demons, familiar spirits, etc...) I personally have a few convincing videos which I believe are part of the 0.1 percent and yet I'm still given to understand after much prayer that they are probably a part of the 'lying signs and wonders'...

      Please be aware that I have also seen such an 'object' with my own eyes and not through a camera lens. Even with that said, I'm still not 100% convinced that the apparition is authentic. (Granted, not like the ones in your linked video because those are lens flares.)

      If you like I could provide and example or 2 which are quite near to what I've seen with my own eyes. I wouldn't spend too much time on it, especially without praying for guidance and discernment through Jesus Christ alone. As well as seeking further confirmation during the coming times. (Not from fraudulent, misleading videos)


    3. Sorry I realized afterward (thanks to your reply as well) that I failed to expand on 'Draco'/'draconids'. I am not 100% convinced of this but it is still worth consideration. In my prior post I was simply implying that the 'Draconids' meteor shower could be far more significant, amazing (or even destructive) than ever before. Perhaps even striking the moon. If something like that that were to occur, I would likely adhere to the dragon having been 'Draco' and the tail having cast down stars having been the 'Draconids' meteor shower, the event in question.

      I also have other comments elsewhere which indicate that if the Sun were to turn red and/or behave in an unexpected way, it could be considered the great red dragon. (After all, the seven heads with blasphemous names could be the planets with the names of [pagan] 'gods' i.e. Jupiter, Mercury, Neptune etc...)

  26. Hi... WTWT.....PERSONALLY, I feel certain ministry's just have nothing better to do than to try to debunk alot of discoveries, simply because they "CAN". The video seemed as though they were very anxious to just criticize and tear down someone else's findings. Laugh at me if you want, but maybe they are simply jealous they didn't discover it FIRST ! OR... desperate to not look like a fool, if they follow something not "proven" yet. These types of people are critics of just about EVERYTHING! Their "debunking" has NO validity!! Why can't they have a simple respect and AWE OF WHAT IS ABOUT TO TRANSPIRE?? There comes a time when we, as God's children, must sit back and soak in the majesty of our great Lord. This occurrence is obviously a TRULY magnificent SIGN from our Creator. How can it NOT happen??? How can it NOT be significant of SOMETHING?? Scottie Clark is no fool, an awful lot of research went into it on his part. God allowed him to discover this and share it ! If God said it will be a great sign in the heavens, let it be. Instead of analyzing it to death, let's be GRATEFUL GOD LOVES US ENOUGH TO NOT LEAVE US IN THE DARK ABOUT WHAT IS TO COME OF THIS WORLD. A loving Father always prepares his child ❤.

  27. K-House has agreed to interview Scottie Clarke soon thank you all for leaving wRONg Matsen messages and maybe he will become Ron again after he hears all the reasons why this has to be the Revelation 12 sign. God is good all the time!

  28. Sadly they are wrong about this matter. Divination and understanding the message that God is saying in the stars are two different things. The heavens only show where we are in God's plan with mankind, they don't control or influence our lives as astrologers claim. The Magi understood God's message in the names of the stars, planets and their positions at the time of the birth of Christ. (the heavens are for signs and for seasons {meaning warnings, signs and feasts or appointed times} according to Genesis)

    They read the message and it brought them to Jesus. It is easy to say we don't now what they saw and never actually look at the signs in the heavens at that time. When we do look we see exactly what they saw and what the meaning was. God wrote a message in his big clock which is for signs and for seasons. I did a radio show about those signs 2000 years ago and what message God is sending us to. It will explain why this is not astrology and what the real meaning of the signs is.

  29. Like many of you I've also been a Berean since i first learned of the "megas semeion" astronomical alignment in Virgo and Leo. Altogether this ongoing research of mine has just entered its 45th month. There are several thousand words posted to my blog regarding Revelation 12.

    One morning this week I made a fully unambiguous statement, on my blog and in a very lightly distributed Email, that I do believe the great sign of Revelation 12:1-2 will occur on 23 September.
    I said nothing about any other verse within Revelation 12, just that verse 1 and 2 would be fulfilled on 23 September.

    Before the sun could set that same day I was personally rebuked and insulted via Email by one of the principles of the Lamb & Lion Ministries (which I have followed and supported, etc. etc for the past decade) due to what i had written. I was also informed in a subsequent Email a couple of hours later that myself and my blog (as a ministry) would be fully discredited on 24 September because of what I have stated. I know first-hand what it is like to be on the receiving end of a brother-in-Christ rebuke and insult devoid of what is stated in I Corinthians 16:14.

    Now, sandals dusted off, I'm embarked on completing a defense of my statement per the directive of II Corinthians 10:5, and I Corinthians 16:13-14.

    1. Hi Sean... So sorry to hear about this brother. You are not alone. Just did a post to hopefully bring light to your story and make others aware of your great site. Thank you for posting and God Bless you!


  30. WTWT I loved the fact that your discussion of the Rev. 12 sign was balanced and based upon the counsel of the Scripture as a unit. I felt no hype or push to believe the conclusion of this presentation, but in the end it just seemed to make sense of the gaps in the theories of the scholars sited to believe this view. The different number of stars in the constellations, the law of first reference etc. were ,to me, worthy food for thought. I too had wondered about the proponents of this view seeming to take the imagery full circle to show that 9/23/17 had to be that of the Rapture or beginning of the Tribulation period only to sort of disavow their own well illustrated conclusions by saying...I'm not saying, I'm not predicting, I'm not a time giver etc. If they fully bought into this theory, then why not go all the way and say , "This is the way it is!" It's as if they are leaving wiggle room to be able to say on 9/24/17 that they told us that this might not unfold as they originally thought. Now it makes me wonder, if indeed, 9/24/17 does manifest, what will they say to acquit themselves from actually being wrong? These scary scenarios with all the dramatic music and other sound effects are frightening to even long time Christians. Why? Many of them have unsaved loved ones whom they know will meet disaster should their prediction prove true. I guess they may feel that the warning serves to give one time to pursue those loved ones and try to convince them to turn to JESUS------but it is still very unnerving to live under the umbrella of possible doom for those who we love so dearly. I suppose this is a very minor objection to such warning in the eyes of those who support the theories, but it still is unnerving to many people. Even Christians who will be taken in the rapture are unnerved by the unknown and all the dramatic presentations of the unknown that these videos contain. Therefore a balancing of the sensational with good common sense interpretation is a welcome and appreciated event. Thanks for your well thought out counsel for the hype sensitive listeners who find all the different predictions and signs to be confusing and overwhelming.

  31. This comment has been removed by the author.

  32. f you are as happy in entering the House as I shall feel on returning to Wheatland, you are a happy man indeed. irish houses for sale


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Colossians 3:2-4

Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

1 Peter 2:9

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Philippians 3:20-21

But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.